My point of view on the vaccination discussion going on (partly in Zurich)

[meissmar]

Hi everyone!

At first I wanted to post this at the zurich thread, but since the vaccinations discussion is going on in several threads I thought it's better to open another for the virus question and as my reply to Dan's comments. Also there were so many people at the conference asking me for my sources and opinion after I was on stage, that I hope to reach a few with this, that I couldn't give a direct answer (like the man from the Netherlands; Sorry, but I couldn't find you again Sunday afternoon!).

After Davids comment on vaccines, when Dan started to say that vaccines are good, I was pretty emotional at first too. I couldn't believe my ears. I couldn't believe that he would say this to an audience like that. I didn't freak out like some of the people you hear in the audio. I'm not like that. Then it all broke loose and I had the impression that no one on stage knew how to handle this situation. Dan was asking for the studies that show what the people were claiming. And he was asking for the poeple to come to the stage and not attack him out of the comfort of the darkness. I assume he was expecting that nobody would go to the stage.

But that felt like a keyword for me and I just had to get on stage. So I started asking him for the studies that show that viruses do cause the diseases that are being associated with them, that these viruses have been isolated and photographed isolated. After all, that's what people like Dr. Stefan Lanka or Dr. Claus Koehnlein in Germany are looking and asking for. He admitted right there that he also never received any. All the "proof" that you can find for their existence is indirect methods. This would be ok, if there is a starting point when the virus has been isolated, photographed, characterized and shown to be causing the disease, that seems to be related to the virus. But that doesn't seem to be the case for any virus.

That's the same thing like with AIDS. Only that there, some people are still questioning the reality of HIV and its isolation, with most other diseases they don't. When I read a lot of stuff from AIDS and HIV critics, I wondered why only few people and scientists seem to realize that HIV has never been isolated or characterized or been shown that it's the cause of AIDS. When I stumbled across Stefan Lanka's stuff, I realized that it's the same thing they do with every virus, so that answered my main question about the HIV discussion.

The discussion with Dan that evening got cut short by a change of tape and I couldn't finish the argument, even though I just wanted to add for everybody in the audience to make his own research and find an educated decision about what's right for them.

Unfortunately, I didn't get another chance to talk to Dan again about his point of view and what makes him so convinced that Viruses really are the culprit. I do not say that I am sure that viruses do not cause these diseases, but I highly doubt it. I'm not saying that viruses do not exist. The question for me and many others is if they really do what we think they do in our body or if they might have a completely different function. What if we are just watching something in our body and we always see a fight going on between good and evil, even though it's not there.

I would really like to have some discussions about this whole thing with people that believe in viruses and think they have the direct proof of their existence and disease creating abilities. Discussion and exchange of ideas is alwas the best thing in my opinion. I also asked Dan in an Email if we could have and exchange about this but I will probably not receive an answer afetr what he wrote.

So as long as we have not proven that viruses are evil, there's no point for me to discuss vaccinations. How can they help, if we don't even know if the virus is the bad guy. And how can we create a vaccine with a "dead virus" without ever isolating and characterizing it? We don't even know that it's there.

I find it very disappointing that all Dan has to say about this issue is that I have a certain believe system where viruses do not fit into. And I don't think that the people screaming at him all thought that viruses don't exist. They just didn't like him suggesting that vaccinations are good and that the people should go and get them. He just took my questions and thought this is what they all think. But judging by how many people approached me after that and asked me, I don't think so.

What I also don't like about this comment is that he is not discussing the point, but rather discrediting the people not believing in viruses. That sounds all too familiar to me. If you don't have arguments, then you attack the person. That's what "they" do to him as well.

And where's the difference between his belief system and mine as long as he can't prove that his is not just a belief? If there's no real prove to support the virus theory, I don't believe in it. Therefore I have a different believe than he does. So surely he can say it's a believe system, but so is his.

I know it's hard to let go of an adopted belief or to think outside the box when you've been trained to think otherwise (all our live we get told about the evil viruses). I've been through this more than once myself. It's even harder to have virology questioned which I think he studied. But then it should be easy to prove the doubters wrong, if they have a false belief. There is so much money spent on this. The studies should be there, don't you think? So why is there still a discussion about this? Why is nobody silencing the guys that come up with these questions? Just show them and everybody else the proof. That's what science is all about.

I also believe that the main reason why we have not experienced a pandemic even though "they" seem to try to create one, is simply because these viruses do not work like that (if they exist). Why try to kill people with vaccines or starvation or the like, if you could create a pandemic by simply setting free a virus. Like Dan said, as a bioweapon, these viruses are way too ineffective in killing people. As well as "HIV", "SARS", "Bird Flu" etc. "They" may even be able to create something that "works" for a few people (kill them), but then disintegrates and becomes harmless.

It would be so much easier to make people take the vaccines if many more people would die from an artificial virus, but for some reason, it doesn't happen.

So in the end, I don't know what to make of Dan. On one hand his story seems to be credible with a guy like David totally believing in him and his story and it's also matching so well with the Law of One. But that can be artificially created as well. He didn't say much if anything really new at the conference. And I thought that he and Marcia are missing the spiritual perspective. Especially her rant at the end of their presentation Friday night made me and many others in the audience feel very uncomfortable. I think that the many great people in the audience have such a very spiritual perspective on everything, that this was just not fitting for them. They are way beyond hating "them". I don't want to discredit him, I'm just pretty confused about him right now.

I always remember a great thing that David said in one of his audio blogs. It went something like this: "Even if those guys do those evil things, it still does not give you the right to hate them." That's so true and deep!



For those that wanted to know my sources or might want to read some of the arguments from people questioning the virus theory, here's some links:

Dr. Stefan Lanka:

http://www.whale.to/b/lanka.html

http://www.whale.to/a/lanka.html

http://www.whale.to/a/lanka_h.html

http://www.neue-medizin.com/lanka2.htm

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/slanka.htm

http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/mcinterviewsl.htm

Unfortunately, there's only a few articles from him in English on the net. He has some great videos in German. But none in English (That's why I asked Bill and Kerry if they might want to interview him; I think many people from the conference might be interested to hear his opinion). I think there's also a book from him available in English. It's a little aggressive in it's style, but still pretty good information.



Dr. Claus Koehnlein:

Another German doctor, that opposes the consensus that viruses are the cause of everything where we can not see a bacteria as the cause (the bacteria issue btw. is a whole discussion in itself; Can we be sure that the bacteria is causing the dis-ease if it goes away when we kill the bacteria? What do we know of the role of bacteria in our body? - you might want to think about that for a moment...).

I have only found a book from him in english:
"Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits At Our Expense (Paperback)"



I wanted to stress that I am not related to any of the people I was talking about and I do not make any profits from this! I just thought that since the interest was so high in these issues at the conference and here in this forum, that I write this up so everybody interested can make his own research and make his own decision about this topic. As Lanka says, you should not believe him, just because he says so. Go to your doctor and your health institutions and ask them for the proof of the viruses and their disease creating ability. You should find out for yourself if they have the studies that prove it, even WHO.



So enough from me (man, 2,5 hours writing this up!). Hopefully this is not too long so nobody reads it!

[Ara]

Great write up Meissner! Thanks so much for sharing your experience and perspective of the vaccine debate. I look forward to delving further into whether viruses are the culprit of these diseases, thanks for the links.

All the Best
Ara

[meissmar]

Thank you very much, Ara!

[mntruthseeker]

thanks Meissmar

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

I have done alot of research into viruses and deseases and my conclusion was something that gets me in trouble

I am not educated past high school so I hope people bare with me on my thoughts

I do believe in any desease. How can I with people like Jim Humble and Dr Horwitz and all the others that have stepped forward and explained their cures.

I said it before and I will say it again. The best thing I ever did was go online and research nutrients, vitamins and minerals and throw away all my prescriptions.

I am 90 % better and if I could just clear up my lungs I would be 100% better.

CDC, FDA and our world leaders will always create viruses thus the deseases will continue. I know someone that works for a pharachucial company and she sees it as "doing miraculous work" so its all in the eye of the beholder.

She is not an evil person just someone doing her job and believing it. We all know that, that happens all the time

[Moxie]

My understanding of virus, example bird flu is that the virus is always present and harmless, but in a situation where say, the birds exist in a congested situation and toxins are introduced, the virus kicks in as the cleanup committee. Also this ties in with pleomorphism. I think it is Waterman that is trying to get that message out too, that somatids exist in the blood, harmlessly, and they go thru a life cycle which can only be seen in a darkfield microscope as it views live tissue, not dead & stained tissues as conventional microscopes operate. My memory is poor on the subject, as it was yrs ago that I read this, that bacteria, fungus, virus are stages that emerge after prompts kick in.

If I recall correctly, it's Dr Enderlein's work. I'll have to phone my best friend, he's really up on all that. So forgive me if I have misstated some things, but it should get you a bit further along in the discussion.

I recommend to, once again, to watch this 12 pt (10 minutes ea)presentation by Dr Ott as he reveals his research that he challenges anyone to refute, how the pandemic is caused & how it will play out. It's a must see
http://www.kickthemallout.com/articl...u_Hoax_Exposed

[meissmar]

Originally Posted by mntruthseeker

thanks Meissmar

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

I have done alot of research into viruses and deseases and my conclusion was something that gets me in trouble

I am not educated past high school so I hope people bare with me on my thoughts

I do believe in any desease. How can I with people like Jim Humble and Dr Horwitz and all the others that have stepped forward and explained their cures.

I said it before and I will say it again. The best thing I ever did was go online and research nutrients, vitamins and minerals and throw away all my prescriptions.

I am 90 % better and if I could just clear up my lungs I would be 100% better.

CDC, FDA and our world leaders will always create viruses thus the deseases will continue. I know someone that works for a pharachucial company and she sees it as "doing miraculous work" so its all in the eye of the beholder.

She is not an evil person just someone doing her job and believing it. We all know that, that happens all the time

Totally agree on your comment about vitamins and minerals. It seems that those are lacking a lot in our food today for various reasons, so it is a very good idea to find a supplement with only natural sources (e.g. no artificial vitamins) and help your body out like that. I started taking chelated magnesium some time ago and it really helps me with my headaches and mild migrane I used to get at least once a week.

a famous us comedian (I think chris rock) once said that they don't cure the diseases but rather find a way for you to live with it so they can make money out of it. The money is in the sick people. It's hard not to think this is the case.

I am not saying that these diseases do not exist. Well, for some I would say, that they are not what we are being told (like AIDS). The symptoms are really there and people are having problems with them. It would be stupid to deny their reality. I just think that what is happening in your body is not what we are being told and what we used to believe (e.g. bacteria or viruses causing it attacking from the outside).

I totally believe that the diseases are coming from within ourselves, that they are being created by our state of mind and our emotions. I am believing this for a very long time now. Then I came across something new to me. I don't want to sound like someone who tries to sell some type of cure or the like or a new medicine. But there is a doctor who seems to have found the connection between what's going on in the mind/emotional body and the physical body disease and who shows that the disease is actually being controlled by the brain. I will post more on this if you "girls and boys" are interested to hear more.

[meissmar]

Originally Posted by Moxie

My understanding of virus, example bird flu is that the virus is always present and harmless, but in a situation where say, the birds exist in a congested situation and toxins are introduced, the virus kicks in as the cleanup committee. Also this ties in with pleomorphism. I think it is Waterman that is trying to get that message out too, that somatids exist in the blood, harmlessly, and they go thru a life cycle which can only be seen in a darkfield microscope as it views live tissue, not dead & stained tissues as conventional microscopes operate. My memory is poor on the subject, as it was yrs ago that I read this, that bacteria, fungus, virus are stages that emerge after prompts kick in.

If I recall correctly, it's Dr Enderlein's work. I'll have to phone my best friend, he's really up on all that. So forgive me if I have misstated some things, but it should get you a bit further along in the discussion.

I recommend to, once again, to watch this 12 pt (10 minutes ea)presentation by Dr Ott as he reveals his research that he challenges anyone to refute, how the pandemic is caused & how it will play out. It's a must see
http://www.kickthemallout.com/articl...u_Hoax_Exposed

I have not yet watched the video (but I will later on). I just wanted to say that it's my understanding and what I heard from many people in "alternative" medicine, that the bacteria and viruses are not causing the diseases, but that they rather help the body. I assume that the Chinese medicine is thinking something along the same lines, because they are not trying to kill bacteria or viruses, but rather help get the right nutrition for the actual problem and do some energy work (like acupuncture).

[day]

Thank you for such an articulate and well thought out post. This thread comes at a well placed moment in time.

I wonder if anyone remembers the media attention to super germs in the 90's? At that time doctors were the culprit for over prescribing antibiotics and now a strain which was resistant to treatment came on the scene. We had just barely caught our breath from this threat to our health when the idea of viruses took on a new threshold of meaning and unlike a decade before, we had to let the virus run its course and simply suffer through it.

During this decade, there was also a lot of attention and accusations with legal implications that vaccines were the reason for a more than 600 percent increase of autism. Parents were forced to have their children inoculated despite the growing evidence of harm to the children. About the same time, a flue shot was made available to prevent people getting the flu.

Now 10 years later we are faced with a strain which is potentially lethal, and vaccinations enforced. People are tense and afraid.

It is unfortunate that things got out of control in Zurich, but an emotional outburst also happened in Barcelona, albeit for different reasons. Something is amiss if the organizing we do to find prevention and strength in numbers can fall apart so easily.

Dan Burisch and Steven Greer, both doctors and both have made tremendous sacrifice for their values and beliefs-- they are subject to all the pressures we face and more as their reputations are further at stake with the very people they have made the sacrifices for.

I believe that we are all subject to 'catch' a bug, but just as much overcome it by the amount of awareness and self healing that is made available via the internet etc. I think that far too much emphasis has been placed in hyper mode of fear, possible panic from pandemics and while a grim outcome is possible its far better to look and pay attention to what increases immunity.

I dont think there are easy solutions, especially when emotions are volatile and can overthrow our collective efforts so easily. Humanity has faced pandemics before, small pox and influenza for native american's, bubonic plague in the middle ages, and yet we discovered how much vitamin C helped, prevented and in some cases brought seeminly miraculous cures.

We surely will find the same with this crisis before us as well as future situations.

Perhaps we might find new arenas within our humanity which demonstrate the miraculous and this emergent strain of flu virus will hasten its awareness. Perhaps what is before us is a remarkable challenge that will bring about changes that we have all wanted for a long time.

In a small way, this forum were people such as yourselves can express and share views and information is the direct result our creativity in the face of survival -- which was caused by potentially life threatening situations.

We must all find new ways to understand, think, envision and assimilate emotionally what faces us today for tomorrow.

its my view that I am deeply appreciative that there are folks such as yourselves to learn from and inspire creative, calm and clear insights.

In this way we are truly at the grassroots level of allowing solutions to present themselves