A capitalism without growth discussed

Noela · 05-18-2009, 01:24 PM

An article in today's Guardian www.guardian.co.uk - "The Age of Entitlement lies
rotting. It's polluted patrons can lead us no more" - Madeleine Bunting
discusses an event held at Carlton House Terrace (London) by the government appointed
Sunstainable Development Commission.

A bold paper 'PROSPERITY WITHOUT GROWTH' by SDC. economist Tim Jackson
was the subject of the discussion. It asked if we could imagine a capitalism without economic growth. "All governments see their primary task as growth in GDP"
It goes on to say that no political leader is prepared to depart from this perceived
wisdom, and what might follow if they did.

It is refreshing to see that such radical ideas are beginning to be aired. Whilst
the paper discusses this from the standpoint of the environment, it has other
wider implications e.g. a move from a culture of consumerism, a respect for
nature, greater social equity - in fact such a change in economics could bring a
major change in consciousness. OR - perhaps we should say that a change
in consciousness is needed to pursue such a radical agenda. Either way -
it would seem such changes are happening - we are seeing the first "green shoots"!

:thumb_yell o:

giovonni · 05-18-2009, 03:23 PM

Very good heads-up Noela!
The reactions from the masses~ is quite odd indeed?
With the threat of a great storm brewing~ some seem complacent and even oblivious> to the future's prospects~ while others are awakening and going about in preparation with a focus diligence?
Could a great divide in consciousness already be within the mist that we breath?

Lets hope many more awake~ so as too ease and usher in a calming affect upon the worlds consciousness

05-18-2009, 03:48 PM

I think the reaction from the masses right now is shock, but it's a necessary stage to go through before real change can take place.

JoyAnna · 05-18-2009, 05:25 PM

Thanks Noela,
I downloaded the full text of the paper to read later. I have never been able to fathom all the ins and outs of economics but have always wondered at the idea that we could expect infinite growth. That is all our governments and businesses have ever considered with no attention given to the results of such a paradigm. It seems there must be limits or boundaries to everything. How can anything simply 'grow' forever without becoming monstrous? I'm eager to read the entire paper and hope to see more people begin to consider this possibility.
Thanks

Noela · 05-19-2009, 01:04 PM

Great to have these positive responses. I agree with you
entirely JoyAnna - it seems bizarre to think of anything
in life growing continuously - yet, this strange notion
has until now been the perceived wisdom.

It always does my heart good to see those in the mainstream
and in semi-government positions allowing previously
unheard of ideas take root in their minds (and one hopes
their hearts). To me this is another confirmation that
we are all one - that ideas float around in the cosmos
and can be 'picked up' and taken on board by anyone.
And I believe there are those who are in a position to act
on such 'radicalism' who are receiving these thoughts
now.

More speed to them and to all who recognise the
new world we are entering!

Carmen · 05-21-2009, 10:00 PM

Galloping economic growth is like cancer and has the same affect on the earth as it does on the human body. The only authentic, desirable growth is growth in consciousness, growth in evolution.

Cheers

Carmen

Carmen · 05-21-2009, 10:00 PM

Galloping economic growth is like cancer and has the same affect on the earth as it does on the human body. The only authentic, desirable growth is growth in consciousness, growth in evolution.

Cheers

Carmen

Carmen · 05-21-2009, 10:03 PM

Galloping economic growth is like cancer and has the same effect on the earth as it does on the human body. The only authentic, desirable growth is growth of consciousness, growth of evolutionary understanding and wisdom

Cheers

Carmen

Carmen · 05-21-2009, 10:03 PM

Oops!!!

orthodoxymoron · 05-21-2009, 10:36 PM

A capitalism which rewards responsibility and punishes irresponsibility...and which rewards constructive competition and punishes destructive competition...is the way to the economic and social promised land. We need to get out of debt...and stay out of debt...worldwide. We need to get out of war...and stay out of war...worldwide. We need simple, basic rules of commerce and civility...and an abundance of referees on steroids to make sure everyone plays by the rules. Fractional reserve banking needs to go. The Federal Reserve needs to go. Sound money based upon a silver standard...should be issued by a non-private central bank. Profiting from war should be declared illegal...worldwide. Laissez Faire Captitalism is the way to go...but free enterprise must be responsible...or we may very well end up with that darn New World Order. Focus on responsibility...and growth will take care of itself.

Humble Janitor · 05-22-2009, 05:00 AM

Capitalism belongs in the same dustbin inhabited by Communism, Socialism and Nationalism.

We can start over with a clean slate without this **** clogging up the evolution and increase in consciousness among the world's peoples.

orthodoxymoron · 05-22-2009, 05:10 AM

So...other than throwing everything out...and tearing everything down...what do you propose that we do to create heaven on earth?

Humble Janitor · 05-22-2009, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orthodoxymoron

So...other than throwing everything out...and tearing everything down...what do you propose that we do to create heaven on earth?

Heaven is a very Christian concept. I don't think it exists.

05-22-2009, 05:52 AM

Thanks, Noela! I can join the list here: how can an economic system be based on the assumptions that growth is limitless and resources, infinite. How long before it's all dead? or all gone? Then, we mine the city dumps.

It's an interesting time

That paper is pdf 135pp - available here
http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/publ...wth_report.pdf

orthodoxymoron · 05-22-2009, 06:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humble Janitor

Heaven is a very Christian concept. I don't think it exists.

Call it Utopia...Paradise...Nirvana...Playboy Mansion...Whatever. It certainly doesn't exist here...but I think it could...and I think it will. Our Planet is how we Plan It.

Noela · 05-22-2009, 08:35 AM

Thanks so much, No Caste for putting up the link to the paper
I referred to at the commencement of this thread. I hope to
read it in full in due course.

For those interested the paper (I think we could call it a book!)
is entitled

PROSPERITY WITHOUT GROWTH - THE TRANSITION TO
A SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY by Professor Tim Jackson,
Economics Commissioner, Sustainable Development Commission

It consists of 11 chapters, but has an 8 page summary at
the commencement, and may answer some of the questions
circulating in the minds of those who have contributed to
this thread - or at least give material for further thought.

:thumb_yell o:

Happy reading everyone!

Noela · 05-30-2009, 07:51 PM

I have written a precis of the paper "Prosperity without Growth"
which can be viewed at www.opednews.com - under the
Life - Arts -Science section.

05-18-2009, 01:24 PM	#1
Noela Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 205	A capitalism without growth discussed An article in today's Guardian www.guardian.co.uk - "The Age of Entitlement lies rotting. It's polluted patrons can lead us no more" - Madeleine Bunting discusses an event held at Carlton House Terrace (London) by the government appointed Sunstainable Development Commission. A bold paper 'PROSPERITY WITHOUT GROWTH' by SDC. economist Tim Jackson was the subject of the discussion. It asked if we could imagine a capitalism without economic growth. "All governments see their primary task as growth in GDP" It goes on to say that no political leader is prepared to depart from this perceived wisdom, and what might follow if they did. It is refreshing to see that such radical ideas are beginning to be aired. Whilst the paper discusses this from the standpoint of the environment, it has other wider implications e.g. a move from a culture of consumerism, a respect for nature, greater social equity - in fact such a change in economics could bring a major change in consciousness. OR - perhaps we should say that a change in consciousness is needed to pursue such a radical agenda. Either way - it would seem such changes are happening - we are seeing the first "green shoots"! :thumb_yell o:

05-18-2009, 03:23 PM	#2
giovonni Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: within my heart Posts: 1,209	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Very good heads-up Noela! The reactions from the masses~ is quite odd indeed? With the threat of a great storm brewing~ some seem complacent and even oblivious> to the future's prospects~ while others are awakening and going about in preparation with a focus diligence? Could a great divide in consciousness already be within the mist that we breath? Lets hope many more awake~ so as too ease and usher in a calming affect upon the worlds consciousness

05-18-2009, 03:48 PM	#3
sleepingnomore Guest Posts: n/a	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed I think the reaction from the masses right now is shock, but it's a necessary stage to go through before real change can take place.

05-18-2009, 05:25 PM	#4
JoyAnna Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Maple Falls, WA, USA Posts: 51	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Thanks Noela, I downloaded the full text of the paper to read later. I have never been able to fathom all the ins and outs of economics but have always wondered at the idea that we could expect infinite growth. That is all our governments and businesses have ever considered with no attention given to the results of such a paradigm. It seems there must be limits or boundaries to everything. How can anything simply 'grow' forever without becoming monstrous? I'm eager to read the entire paper and hope to see more people begin to consider this possibility. Thanks

05-19-2009, 01:04 PM	#5
Noela Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 205	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Great to have these positive responses. I agree with you entirely JoyAnna - it seems bizarre to think of anything in life growing continuously - yet, this strange notion has until now been the perceived wisdom. It always does my heart good to see those in the mainstream and in semi-government positions allowing previously unheard of ideas take root in their minds (and one hopes their hearts). To me this is another confirmation that we are all one - that ideas float around in the cosmos and can be 'picked up' and taken on board by anyone. And I believe there are those who are in a position to act on such 'radicalism' who are receiving these thoughts now. More speed to them and to all who recognise the new world we are entering!

05-21-2009, 10:00 PM	#6
Carmen Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 992	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Galloping economic growth is like cancer and has the same affect on the earth as it does on the human body. The only authentic, desirable growth is growth in consciousness, growth in evolution. Cheers Carmen

05-21-2009, 10:03 PM	#8
Carmen Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 992	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Galloping economic growth is like cancer and has the same effect on the earth as it does on the human body. The only authentic, desirable growth is growth of consciousness, growth of evolutionary understanding and wisdom Cheers Carmen

05-21-2009, 10:36 PM	#10
orthodoxymoron Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lunar Base II Posts: 3,093	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed A capitalism which rewards responsibility and punishes irresponsibility...and which rewards constructive competition and punishes destructive competition...is the way to the economic and social promised land. We need to get out of debt...and stay out of debt...worldwide. We need to get out of war...and stay out of war...worldwide. We need simple, basic rules of commerce and civility...and an abundance of referees on steroids to make sure everyone plays by the rules. Fractional reserve banking needs to go. The Federal Reserve needs to go. Sound money based upon a silver standard...should be issued by a non-private central bank. Profiting from war should be declared illegal...worldwide. Laissez Faire Captitalism is the way to go...but free enterprise must be responsible...or we may very well end up with that darn New World Order. Focus on responsibility...and growth will take care of itself. Last edited by orthodoxymoron; 05-21-2009 at 10:53 PM.

05-22-2009, 05:00 AM	#11
Humble Janitor Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,201	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Capitalism belongs in the same dustbin inhabited by Communism, Socialism and Nationalism. We can start over with a clean slate without this **** clogging up the evolution and increase in consciousness among the world's peoples.

05-22-2009, 05:10 AM	#12
orthodoxymoron Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lunar Base II Posts: 3,093	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed So...other than throwing everything out...and tearing everything down...what do you propose that we do to create heaven on earth?

05-22-2009, 05:52 AM	#14
no caste Guest Posts: n/a	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Thanks, Noela! I can join the list here: how can an economic system be based on the assumptions that growth is limitless and resources, infinite. How long before it's all dead? or all gone? Then, we mine the city dumps. It's an interesting time That paper is pdf 135pp - available here http://www.sd-commission.org.uk/publ...wth_report.pdf

05-22-2009, 08:35 AM	#16
Noela Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 205	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed Thanks so much, No Caste for putting up the link to the paper I referred to at the commencement of this thread. I hope to read it in full in due course. For those interested the paper (I think we could call it a book!) is entitled PROSPERITY WITHOUT GROWTH - THE TRANSITION TO A SUSTAINABLE ECONOMY by Professor Tim Jackson, Economics Commissioner, Sustainable Development Commission It consists of 11 chapters, but has an 8 page summary at the commencement, and may answer some of the questions circulating in the minds of those who have contributed to this thread - or at least give material for further thought. :thumb_yell o: Happy reading everyone!

05-30-2009, 07:51 PM	#17
Noela Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 205	Re: A capitalism without growth discussed I have written a precis of the paper "Prosperity without Growth" which can be viewed at www.opednews.com - under the Life - Arts -Science section.