Vegetarians or Vegans?

[izz]

Originally Posted by 99Boogies

I feel no guilt for being at the top of the food chain. The only thing I feel guilt about is not being able to share my gratefulness to the creature that died for me; by treating it compassionately during its life and asking its spirit both for its blessings and forgiveness.

ummm ... all life is connected .. you choose to eat animals from slaughter houses, therefore you support the system of killing via slaughter houses ..

You choose to do this .. you dont need too ..

top of the food chain ... umm interesting that is probably what the power brokers think when they consider the consequences of their actions in relation to us mere mortals ..

sets a dangerous precedent does nt it

it is hard for truely awake individuals to harm other beings .. only those who are asleep could do such a thing

the native americans were very connected to all life .. we cant live like them these days .. or very few of us can ..in relation to eating sentient animals

[izz]

Originally Posted by 99Boogies

"Life" doesn't spontaneously come from nowhere... it just gets passed along. Somewhere, something has to "give" in order for something else to "receive".

good point .. where are mankind giving ? specifically where are western mankind giving ?

[Shellie]

There are many other animals out there at the top of the food chain- all strictly carnivores are.

And I do not see any connections between vertical patriarchal power structures and the food chain. In either situation, we all die and the microbes get us- they turn us into nutrients that feed plants, that feed the herbivores, that feed the omnivores and the carnivores. But as far as the system goes, one sick power-hungry monster dies and nobody benefits. They just get replaced by another sick power-hungry monster. The little guy doesn't get a piece of anything.

[Shellie]

I also use dollars, but that does not mean I support the Federal Reserve.

[arcora]

At the risk of being labeled a provocoteur or a troll I have a viewpoint.

Karma is for all beings - including animals and perhaps vegetables.

Has anyone thought that perhaps an animal giving his life to feed and nurture a higher being creates good karma which will allow that animal to ascend to a higher state of conciousness? Perhaps when a higher being eats an animal and gives him the opportunity to ascend that also generates good karma for the individual.

I know this is out of vegan mainstream belief and again, I don't mean to disrupt or instigate. It is just a thought that I had.

[izz]

Originally Posted by arcora

At the risk of being labeled a provocoteur or a troll I have a viewpoint.

Karma is for all beings - including animals and perhaps vegetables.

Has anyone thought that perhaps an animal giving his life to feed and nurture a higher being creates good karma which will allow that animal to ascend to a higher state of conciousness? Perhaps when a higher being eats an animal and gives him the opportunity to ascend that also generates good karma for the individual.

I know this is out of vegan mainstream belief and again, I don't mean to disrupt or instigate. It is just a thought that I had.

i apologise for calling you saying you were ATS trolling that was wrong of me

[Shellie]

Ok, this is so bizarre, but I had a flashback to college "History of Fairy Tales" class...

Basically, in western culture it was a GOOD thing to eat/drink something because there was a belief that by doing so you could acquire some of the characteristics of the thing/person(!) you were eating. Cannibalism was a very popular theme in western fairy tales. But what is more disturbing than that is the number of people who participate in symbolic ritual cannibalism every Sunday! (Really no offense intended, just an intellectual observation).

[izz]

Originally Posted by 99Boogies

Ok, this is so bizarre, but I had a flashback to college "History of Fairy Tales" class...

Basically, in western culture it was a GOOD thing to eat/drink something because there was a belief that by doing so you could acquire some of the characteristics of the thing/person(!) you were eating. Cannibalism was a very popular theme in western fairy tales. But what is more disturbing than that is the number of people who participate in a symbolic ritual cannibalism every Sunday! (Really no offense intended, just an intellectual observation).

the thing is boogle the meat eaters and th enon meat eaters or partial meat eaters will never agree .. until a shift occurs and they see things the same way .. so all this discussion is in some way pointless..

I think the belief you have just highlighted is still in operation which is why the chinese [ some chinese ] chop off the paws ffrom bears when they are still alive - to imbue the soup with the fear and pain of the bear ..

same with tigers .. they have tiger farms where they harvest these beautiful creatures for the same reason ..

essentially .. slaughter houses are vile and that is where most of the meat comes from .. i cant eat meat because i cant be party to that vileness .. any cursury look at farming methods and killing methods on the internet and you would see what i mean.

If could live life as the american indians did .. maybe i would eat meat ..

[Shellie]

You're right.

[Phtha]

Originally Posted by historycircus

Then, it is OK to harvest for sustinance any living organism that has a lower level of conciousness than ourselves? That should present a real problem for those who believe extraterrestrials are doing the same thing to humans, and are horrified by it.

Just a thought.

The planes of human consciousness and above are in a whole new and separate category then that which is below it, ala elements, minerals, plants, and then animals. There exists a gradient though between the creatures and the planes. Meaning the highest mineral will be similar in awareness to the lowest plant, and the highest plant similar to lowest animal.

But going along with your question, to be truly benevolent we wouldn't even be able to exist. As every step we take would squish an atom which has a basic love/fear consciousness, or scientifically speaking, attract/repel. This is where common sense needs to come into play.

Edit:
Oops I meant to add that what is happening now to animals is PURE EVIL. They are being skinned alive and hung from hooks every single minute of every day. They are being burnt, electrocuted, and tortured in ways we all need to become aware of, because anyone with any sense of humanity would be sickened if they really knew what was happening in meat processing plants. We need to become aware so it will stop..

Watch this video meat eaters! It doesn't bite... or live in ignorance.
http://www.chooseveg.com/animal-cruelty.asp

[Dantheman62]

Originally Posted by izz

the thing is boogle the meat eaters and th enon meat eaters or partial meat eaters will never agree .. until a shift occurs and they see things the same way .. so all this discussion is in some way pointless..

I think the belief you have just highlighted is still in operation which is why the chinese [ some chinese ] chop off the paws ffrom bears when they are still alive - to imbue the soup with the fear and pain of the bear ..

same with tigers .. they have tiger farms where they harvest these beautiful creatures for the same reason ..

essentially .. slaughter houses are vile and that is where most of the meat comes from .. i cant eat meat because i cant be party to that vileness .. any cursury look at farming methods and killing methods on the internet and you would see what i mean.

If could live life as the american indians did .. maybe i would eat meat ..

I'm not knocking anything here at all, love my vegies and don't eat alot of meat and my oldest sister is vegetarian, but just wondering why do we have the teeth we have? some teeth are for biting and tearing meat aren't they? again, just wondering!

[izz]

Originally Posted by Phtha

Edit:
Oops I meant to add that what is happening now to animals is PURE EVIL. They are being skinned alive and hung from hooks every single minute of every day. They are being burnt, electrocuted, and tortured in ways we all need to become aware of, because anyone with any sense of humanity would be sickened if they really knew what was happening in meat processing plants. We need to become aware so it will stop..

Watch this video meat eaters! It doesn't bite... or live in ignorance.
http://www.chooseveg.com/animal-cruelty.asp

i agree .. and when our consciouness rises collectively this wont happen .. advanced societies would never ever treat sentient beings like this ..

we as in mankind dont have a great track record in the way we treat each other either ..

[King Lear]

[izz]

yea yea same old same old .. there is ALWAYS someone like king lear who is an avid meat eater .. who then starts going on about vegetables YAWN ...

The good king's symbols are valid Jzz. We have a right to eat vegetables because they are a lower form of sentient life? I think the carrot men of garden planet 7 would argue with you.

[izz]

Originally Posted by historycircus

The good king's symbols are valid Jzz. We have a right to eat vegetables because they are a lower form of sentient life? I think the carrot men of garden planet 7 would argue with you.

haha my point is that it is always the people who care nothing for the killing of other life forms who make this point IMO .. they happily eat veal and pigs that have been kept in sheds their whole lives and killed in the most barbarious manner ..

then they always seem to make this inane point about vegetables ..

I do think trees and plants have life force ... lear made that post to mock not to inform which is why i am

[Carol]

Izz, from one perspective you are absolutely correct. To kill and to eat another animal is wrong from several spiritual perspectives.

Then there is the reality that if the body goes without meat in 7 years it loses the capacity to produce its own vitamin B. In fact, some bodies become anemic without meat and just do very poorly. Blood type O needs meat where another Blood type doesn't. Who is to say what is right here? We chose not to eat meat for spiritual reasons and then chose to eat meat again for medical reasons.

I did speak to a Buddhist about this once and there was a lovely story she told which referred to how the consciousness of that which was eaten was raised by the act of becoming one with person who needed food to live. That if not eaten, consciousness would stay at the same level. I wish I could remember the story to pass it on as it did help me personally come to terms with this delemma.

[Sideshow Shaman]

Originally Posted by Blufire77

Sideshow Shaman I'm curious . . . . what experience do you have growing vegetables or producing meat?

Lots. I've lived in the center of a city now for quite a few years. So all I have in the ground right now is asparagus and horse radish. These are on my fathers property which is virgin forest.

At age 2 my family moved into a farming community, heavily dairy too. A bit funny because I have never liked dairy. Anyway, the children's (me+others) daily chores included weeding the large garden, feeding the animals, etc. We also helped at the time of planting & slaughter. The fishing rule was, You catch it you clean it. We stayed there until i was 10.

The variety of plants and animals that we grew was fairly large. Food was also gathered from the forest, mushrooms, watercress, nettles, blueberries, etc. Bartering with farmers was good too. I still enjoy hanging out with the organic farmers and trading tips when I visit.


Funny thing i noticed a couple years ago. Went back to the swamp in the state forest where a huge amount of blueberries grow free for the picking. In the 70s when our whole family would go picking there were always other people out there. if you waited until the end of the season there might not be much left. This time when we went, not only was no one else out there, the bushes had not been picked at all for the entire season! People are really losing touch.

Thanks for asking Blufire :-)
It sounds like you have a pretty good knack for growing.



I feel that if everyone had to kill & butcher their own meat, many meat eaters would suddenly lose their appetite. It is important to honor the animals that are eaten. Modern slaughter houses are truly an abomination. My experience of knowing where my food comes from seems to be fairly unusual these days.

It also seems pretty obvious that meat has been heavily over-emphasized in western culture, and increasingly so in eastern cultures. So for the most part people really should, at least, cut back on the sheer volume of meat consumed.

Everyone here should realize by now that the modern food supply has been highly, purposely, contaminated. That goes double for supermarket meat.

Beef!
it's what you're programmed to eat.

[King Lear]

Originally Posted by izz

haha my point is that it is always the people who care nothing for the killing of other life forms who make this point IMO .. they happily eat veal and pigs that have been kept in sheds their whole lives and killed in the most barbarious manner ..

then they always seem to make this inane point about vegetables ..

I do think trees and plants have life force ... lear made that post to mock not to inform which is why i am

"killed in barbarious manner"??
Do you know that there are strict rules/laws how to butcher an animal cruel-free?
Ever heard of that?
Indeed there are many countries in the world where humans have lesser rights and get abused much more than animals in the western world.

So stop wailing!
Go to Afghanistan and demonstrate there for animal rights, you will see what you earn.


I myself have in fact many veggies as personal friends, but that doesn't stop me to make fun of them.
In my opinion it is as stupid to exclude meat totally, as to exclude vegetables and fruits totally.

In my opinion that's unhealthy.

[chelmostef]

Originally Posted by historycircus

Good point Boogies. Native American hunters did that very thing. European traders found it odd that Indian hunters would speak to the fallen prey after the chase. In a couple of recorded instances, we know they were thanking the spirit of the animal for its gift. We could probably do the same I guess, but it would be eaisier if we had an up close relationship with our meat (caught or raised ourselves).

I that is very good point. It shows respect for the animals and a understanding they have a soul. To say thanks to the spirit of the animal for its gift of its body as meat.


For me I consider animals as my friends. And I dont eat my friends.

As for plants. I dont consider that they have a entity living inside them, although they most definitely are alive.

I do not think our journey as souls begins with plants, but with animals and the more you advance your soul the further you progress. I dont know where we start in this jorney, say as ants or beatles for instance. Or what the advanced beings are or we we are in this line.
I think that as Humans we are on this road somewhere, and the more you progress your own or other souls the more likely you will progress to the next leval, where ever that is

[King Lear]

But GOD created us this way.
As beings who consume living resources.
We've to accept our position!

I myself would like to consume only sunlight, that would be good for my purse as for my waist.
But unfortunately that's not the way GOD created us.

Is a wolf cruel, when he kills a sheep to survive?
Or a bear who catches a salmon at the waterfalls?
Bears are indeed so wasteful that they only rip out the caviar of the salmons and then throw away the rest of the corpse.


No.
Only the meat consuming human is mean and cruel.

[izz]

Originally Posted by King Lear

"killed in barbarious manner"??
Do you know that there are strict rules/laws how to kill an animal cruel-free?
Ever heard of that?
Indeed there are many countries in the world where humans have lesser rights and get abused much more than animals in the western world.

So stop wailing!
Go to Afghanistan and demonstrate there for animal rights, you will see what you earn.


I myself have in fact many veggies as personal friends, but that doesn't stop me to make fun of them.
In my opinion it is as stupid to exclude meat totally, as to exclude vegetables and fruits totally.

In my opinion that's unhealthy.

[izz]

Originally Posted by King Lear

But GOD created us this way.
As beings who consume living resources.
We've to accept our position!

I myself would like to consume only sunlight, that would be good for my purse as for my .

haha i have to respond to this but need to be careful with my wording

[Phtha]

Originally Posted by King Lear

"killed in barbarious manner"??
Do you know that there are strict rules/laws how to butcher an animal cruel-free?
Ever heard of that?

Whether there really are such laws I don't know, but if you think they are being followed then you have proven your ignorance to the reality of meat processing plants, among other things, 110%.

Do you guys know that in one pack of ground beef there could be up to 1000 different cows... mmmmm!

Did you know that the FDA deems cows and other animals with cancer and other man made diseases safe for processing.... mmmmmm!

[izz]

check out ' meet your meat '

put that in your browser King Lear ..

and tell me that slaughter houses are not evil places full of pain, fear and terrible terrible acts of barbary