[NancyV]

Originally Posted by martian31v

my dear nancy,
you are entirely correct about my emotions and the negative affect they played in my communications with you and murnut. one of these days i will learn that lesson. i do apologize to you both for my tone and language.

from one perspective your views on "shoulds" is appealing and admirable. not an easy perspective to live from, especially in this world. but from another perspective "shoulds" or "intentions" are the means toward creating a new realty, and a necessary aspect of our free will. if i am not satisfied with my/our reality, then i am inherently required to attempt a change. "should", then becomes the responsibility of those who seek change.

the fact that man has consistently perpetrated injustices, should not lead to the conclusion that those injustices are inevitable. we live in a reality that is constantly changing, and we have the ability to participate in that process of change. therefor, "should" is a necessary aspect of our reality. "should" is the impetus of creation.

the assumption that all humans are created equal is a necessary assumption in the process of defining human rights. if we do not start with that fundamental assumption, then it is possible for any group or individual to claim superiority over another. the fact that some humans already claim superiority over others does not negate the necessity of this assumption. if all souls are created equal and all human body's maintain a soul, then all human body's are created equal. this is true despite our actions to the contrary.

if that premise holds and you agree to the 2nd premise (sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowlege leading to inequity of power), then a conclusion of an inherent right to pursue existential information seems to naturally follow.

if interested in continuing debate, i promise to remain unattached and void of childish insults. i do apologize. thank you for calling me out, martian

You're very cute, Martian. I'm still laughing!

I have found it much easier to live in this world after I stopped worrying about "shoulds" so much. Yes, I agree that intentions are powerful and are useful in creating a new reality. But how is it free will for you if my intentions for you are that you comply with my version of reality? You may seek to change the reality of others but if they don't accept your version of what they should do or how they should be, so what? We can put out our desires for the reality we envision, but if others reject it, perhaps that is absolutely not in alignment with the lessons they are to learn at this time in their journey. If there is resistance, then it's often a good time to back off. We will not all agree about everything and that's the way it is.

I cannot make an absolute statement that all violence is bad or unjust since man has perpetrated "injustices" since time immemorial. I'm not even sure about the absolute meaning of "unjust", since it might be completely JUST that someone perpetrates violence upon another for some reason that I'm not aware of. Perhaps it might be a karmic thing, or a pre-arranged scenario agreed upon before incarnating, or many other things I can't even imagine. It seems to be part of the human equation, how can that be inherently wrong in all cases without knowing the bigger picture?

Just because I don't like people treating others cruelly does not mean that I can or should eradicate cruelty from the world, nor is it my place to tell everyone else that they "SHOULD" be peaceful and loving when I really don't know the ultimate purpose of incarnation on this earth plane. It may very well be a part of YOUR purpose that you will tell everyone else what they should do, according to your present knowledge and level of awareness, but I find that the older I get, the fewer absolute convictions I have when it comes to telling others how they should live their lives (except for my children!).

In my opinion this is a solo trip, a singular challenge. The less time I spend worrying about changing everyone else the more time I can spend thinking about what I do, what pleases me, how I should act and what I think is right for me to do and say. It's also not of concern to me what others think about me. Basically it's not any of my business what your opinion of me is. Life is so much simpler this way. I rarely get offended because I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. Sure, I care a huge amount about this whole trip here on the earthplane and the entire great journey, but I have one belief that I allow myself, and that is... that it's all working out exactly the way it's supposed to. Why?? Because it IS.

Since your basic premise is fatally flawed - that all humans are created equal - your subsequent logic is flawed. We each have built in effects from and limitations of knowledge, awareness, physical health, motivations, genetics, karmic baggage, gender, race, geographical location, parents, etc. We live in a duality. On the one hand we are unlimited and all loving. On the other hand we have many limitations, inequalities, and we are capable of hate and great violence. Until we merge our "lower self" with our "higher self" we are affected by both, and we may be affected by both even after leaving this incarnation. It depends on where your particular soul/mind resides. Yes, we are all equal as we approach the Source, but as separated parts of the Source we are not equally endowed.

I do agree that "sequestering of information leads to inequity of knowledge and inequity of power". So what? That's the way it is here. Everyone does it! It is not merely the purview of "evil government". If we were meant to know everything we would have telepathic abilities much more developed than we do. But we can and do easily fool each other and lie to each other on a daily basis in every aspect of our lives.

As far as "rights", I still maintain that the only rights you have are the ones you take for yourself and keep for yourself. We do not have the power to grant "rights" to others. I do not agree that "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It sounds good, I LIKE it, but I don't believe it. It was agreed upon by men who signed it, after some pretty heated debates, but even many of them didn't believe we were created equal, certainly they didn't all believe that Blacks or Indians were equal. Thomas Jefferson himself stated that he believed blacks were inherently inferior to whites, and he also included Indians in that opinion.

I like my husband's response when asked if he's a racist. He says "I'm not a racist, I hate everyone equally!" His point being that you can find just as many vile specimens of human beings in any race and either gender. I'm sure the humor of that will escape those who think one must always be "loving".

The government has just as much "right" to hide information as you have a "right" to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We don't LIKE that the government keeps so many secrets and the government doesn't like it when people like Gary McKinnon try to hack into those secrets. Since Gary is not as strong as his government in the UK, they may force him to go to the US and accept the punishment for his actions. The US government is more powerful than Gary, so he can either fight, flee, or accept his fate for doing something ill advised with possibly harsh consequences.

What I really don't get is why the vast majority of members who have posted in this thread don't understand that Murnut is correct. He is not hostile or argumentative, although he is continuing to respond. Mainly it is his detractors who don't like anyone disagreeing with them because they believe THEY are inherently RIGHT! He has presented a logical summation of the circumstances and of Gary's choices. On the other hand we have a bunch of zealots who seem to need an iconic figure to help them in their fight for truth, justice and against the evil government. One of the funniest things I see is that Gary doesn't make a very good icon. He's a 42 year old stoner who was stupid enough to hack into the US Military with a dial up dinosaur of a computer and leave threats!!! If he didn't know about any potential consequences then he's also an ignoramus. It's not like he's a Ghandi or a Martin Luther King!

But each will have their own causes and passions. I think the whole thing is very entertaining.

Nancy