Old Project Avalon Forum (ARCHIVE) - View Single Post - Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?

Sideshow Shaman · 01-07-2010, 06:50 AM

Hey Night Light,

Took me a few days to notice your post, good questions. People do always seem focused on communities in nature. And of course I always need some nature time every year.

The website of my old friend ( that I forwarded the Compressed Earth Brick info to ) is www.xomox.cn. I don't think he's a big organizer in the Zeitgeist phenom & he has been in Asia for some years. Some of his research/info survived the final edit & got into Addendum and he was doing something for the next one. Not involved with it myself but the Zeitgeist community seems pretty huge. Mi amigo was focusing his current research on established food growing technologies & is currently chasing/creating project opportunities in Cambodia. Any info about growing food in vertical farms would be great, more for him than for ZG.

As for the Urban vs. Country thing, I somewhat disagree. For me radiant zones are about the energy/actions of the people present not anything else.

I don't think i can really respond to your concerns about martial law, economic collapse, roving hoards and toxic waste individually in detail. These all seem like 'old paradigm' concerns... False Evidence Appearing Real. Personally, I cheer every time the stock market goes down, the sooner this system breaks the better. Martial Law is already a reality and even countryside is toxic now. Also, in times of great crisis people come together. That has been my experience and it seems more so as time goes by.

While I do not really feel one approach is inherently better than the other (the answer is always both), I will pretend to argue against the countryside for the sake of conversation. It seems that the country communities are made up of very small groups of people. It also seems like the membership is static or non-fluid. While permanence or survivability (sustainability?) might be valuable to some, should that really be required for radiance? Ok, done with 'devils advocate'.

Some things that made me think of my last urban place of residence as a radiant zone (zone-lette?)...
Tons of activism, people actively influencing audiences/media & being successful at it
Visitors/residents coming, staying and going from around the world - a fluid, changing, large population
Everyone living well outside of preconceived normal culture
Lots of musicians and artists practicing their crafts
Random spontaneous dancing
Free food
A diverse mixture of people, presence of indigenous tribes people
Neighbors that look super scary, but were actually nice

Maybe we could all make a list, "you might be in a radiant zone if..."
Doing that could clarify what we mean by this phrase. It likely means different things to different people.

Recently Kre8ive Lady made a very good comment on another thread about the issues in communal living that she saw coming up over and over in different communities.

My interpretation of the points in her comment are :
Issues that arise in communal living,
1.) Rules enforced inconsistently and unfairly
2.) Disputes over money and/or ownership (land, property)
3.) Individuals exploiting rules for personal benefit
4.) Whoever has the most money wins
5.) Senior members acting as dictators towards junior members, example: founders turning into 'mini-Hilters'

These are issues that I see as important, mostly interpersonal in nature. So while I was thinking about these things I watched a TED presentation, "Barry Schwartz on our loss of wisdom". In it he proposes that rules or bureaucracy cannot solve many problems. He gives examples of practical wisdom that 'saves' situations.

So this gave me an epiphany. The solution to these recurring problems is not more rules or even rewards. The solution is creating an environment that nurtures wisdom. Perhaps this could be provoked by choosing members already prone to "doing the right thing, in the right way, for the right reasons".

Briefly, on the topic of rules & structure for communities... I do think some rules are required, but minimally. The best legal structure, imo, is an unincorporated non-profit association which then requires all property to be owned by a trust. But these are secondary issues to the interpersonal ones that will come up no matter what structure is used.

It can be amazing how few rules are needed when participants are ethical. For radiant zones it seems more appropriate to focus on fostering good than on enforcing conduct. In the end I propose that even physical structures (homes) and locations are less important than altruism or 'practical wisdom'.

best wishes, respect,
— SS

P.S. my debt is a minor annoyance that will be gone before spring. Didn't you (Night Light) say you were doing something in the southern Yucatan? I love that area, good choice.

01-07-2010, 06:50 AM	#356
Sideshow Shaman Avalon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Manasota FL Posts: 114	Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ? Hey Night Light, Took me a few days to notice your post, good questions. People do always seem focused on communities in nature. And of course I always need some nature time every year. The website of my old friend ( that I forwarded the Compressed Earth Brick info to ) is www.xomox.cn. I don't think he's a big organizer in the Zeitgeist phenom & he has been in Asia for some years. Some of his research/info survived the final edit & got into Addendum and he was doing something for the next one. Not involved with it myself but the Zeitgeist community seems pretty huge. Mi amigo was focusing his current research on established food growing technologies & is currently chasing/creating project opportunities in Cambodia. Any info about growing food in vertical farms would be great, more for him than for ZG. As for the Urban vs. Country thing, I somewhat disagree. For me radiant zones are about the energy/actions of the people present not anything else. I don't think i can really respond to your concerns about martial law, economic collapse, roving hoards and toxic waste individually in detail. These all seem like 'old paradigm' concerns... False Evidence Appearing Real. Personally, I cheer every time the stock market goes down, the sooner this system breaks the better. Martial Law is already a reality and even countryside is toxic now. Also, in times of great crisis people come together. That has been my experience and it seems more so as time goes by. While I do not really feel one approach is inherently better than the other (the answer is always both), I will pretend to argue against the countryside for the sake of conversation. It seems that the country communities are made up of very small groups of people. It also seems like the membership is static or non-fluid. While permanence or survivability (sustainability?) might be valuable to some, should that really be required for radiance? Ok, done with 'devils advocate'. Some things that made me think of my last urban place of residence as a radiant zone (zone-lette?)... Tons of activism, people actively influencing audiences/media & being successful at it Visitors/residents coming, staying and going from around the world - a fluid, changing, large population Everyone living well outside of preconceived normal culture Lots of musicians and artists practicing their crafts Random spontaneous dancing Free food A diverse mixture of people, presence of indigenous tribes people Neighbors that look super scary, but were actually nice Maybe we could all make a list, "you might be in a radiant zone if..." Doing that could clarify what we mean by this phrase. It likely means different things to different people. Recently Kre8ive Lady made a very good comment on another thread about the issues in communal living that she saw coming up over and over in different communities. My interpretation of the points in her comment are : Issues that arise in communal living, 1.) Rules enforced inconsistently and unfairly 2.) Disputes over money and/or ownership (land, property) 3.) Individuals exploiting rules for personal benefit 4.) Whoever has the most money wins 5.) Senior members acting as dictators towards junior members, example: founders turning into 'mini-Hilters' These are issues that I see as important, mostly interpersonal in nature. So while I was thinking about these things I watched a TED presentation, "Barry Schwartz on our loss of wisdom". In it he proposes that rules or bureaucracy cannot solve many problems. He gives examples of practical wisdom that 'saves' situations. So this gave me an epiphany. The solution to these recurring problems is not more rules or even rewards. The solution is creating an environment that nurtures wisdom. Perhaps this could be provoked by choosing members already prone to "doing the right thing, in the right way, for the right reasons". Briefly, on the topic of rules & structure for communities... I do think some rules are required, but minimally. The best legal structure, imo, is an unincorporated non-profit association which then requires all property to be owned by a trust. But these are secondary issues to the interpersonal ones that will come up no matter what structure is used. It can be amazing how few rules are needed when participants are ethical. For radiant zones it seems more appropriate to focus on fostering good than on enforcing conduct. In the end I propose that even physical structures (homes) and locations are less important than altruism or 'practical wisdom'. best wishes, respect, — SS P.S. my debt is a minor annoyance that will be gone before spring. Didn't you (Night Light) say you were doing something in the southern Yucatan? I love that area, good choice. Last edited by Sideshow Shaman; 01-07-2010 at 06:54 AM.