Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

We used to have hot dry summers but I think they have made them wet to reduce the vit D we get so that we all catch the flu easier :thumbdown:

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

I'm sending you some sunshine from Poland. Not that we have too much but I am willing to share it with you....:original: To your health! cheers!

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Thx I did see the sun poke out from behind a cloud for a second :original:
I'll send it back to you :original:

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Please don't! we have over 30 degrees here today!!!

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

It's great to find such a great thread on a topic that is so close to my heart! Thank you Mudra for starting it.

I came to Avalon to connect with like-mided people and contribute in the creation and development of a community living according to the principles of a higher consciousness. My passion is to wholeheartedly give of myself to the realization of a new paradigm of living dedicated to peace, self-responsibility, loving compassion and good will. All the while, developing my mind and will to reach my highest potential along with other fellow members.

I fully realize that the grand task at hand will require a lot of hard work, perseverance and a willingness to meet new challlenges while holding steadfast to a highly evolved attitude through it all. I trust that all the necessary people, places, things, times and events are manifesting in perfect harmony because the purpose and intention of this mission are of the highest order. I know the quality of my thoughts, words, actions and intentions manifest my reality.

I believe it is wise and prudent to make appropriate preparations for the coming changes of the great Shift. However, I do not merely want to survive... indeed, I wish to thrive and expand along with fellow members of the new Consciousness of Unity and Love. My gaze and vision are fixed upon the goal... I am much more excited and lit up by the unlimited possibilities awaiting the fully realized being in the next level of our evolution. It is indeed a privilege and an honor to be a part of the creation process of a new society based on the highest principles of love, unity, peace and mutual empowerment.

I am grateful to Avalon and its members for the bounty of information, resources and encouragement that is found here!

With much love and respect,
--Cosmic Dancer :original:

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

One of the areas I was looking into was waste treatment; an area that can't be avoided. With a scenario where rain is almost continuous after a shift, the septic fields will be saturated and not of much use. Here's some compost systems that I look at:

Most of the commercial ones are aerobic and need good air circulation (need vent/fan). There are many that have internet complains that it doesn't work! that would make a real big mess! Sometimes it's because they are overloaded.

This one uses a drum that requires rotation once in a while, and the dried compost must be regularly taken out. This is one of two that is certified:
http://www.sun-mar.com/prod_flush.html

This next company is well recognized and has a lot of commercial installations. A liquid waste is produced that can be used as a fertilizer. The solid waste needs to be taken out on an infrequent basis. The tanks are tall, which means that it is not feasible to have this on the first floor.
http://www.clivusmultrum.com/

Some installations:
NYC:
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&pid...on%2Fpdf&pli=1

Vancouver University:
http://www.clivusmultrum.com/proj_gr...ing_choi.shtml

Here's the one that I was interested in. It's based in Sweden and is the cofounder of clivusmultum. I see it as an improved design. It claims solids need only to be removed 3-5 times over 100 years. It's about 3 feet high, so can be installed for the first floor. The compost is a liquid that can be used as fertilizer like the above. It doesn't export, but I'm trying to make a licensing arrangement with the person. If any community is interested, let me know, as it may help to get a license. (He sells it in Europe).
http://www.compostera.com/

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi NorthernSanctuary.

A couple of things come to mind. First from George Greens site. I haven't looked into it too much, but it might be worth a look.

http://www.nomorehoaxes.com/the-community.html

I also came across this after listening to Kerry's interview with Ananda Bosman.

http://magnecules.com/Magnegas-Refineries.html

http://www.magnegas.com/

This is described as being a very good recycler of waste, and even has claims that radioactive waste can be made harmless. This system appears to have amazing potential towards self sufficiency.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi Northern Sanctuary,
I have designed and built a number of dry compost toilets and I can't imagine too many situations where they would not work well (flooding being the only potential problem).
It is always best if you have some land free and can build a purpose built structure to house the toilet, but this is not essential.
I have seen a number of installations fitted inside houses that also work very well (and you dont need the complication or expense of a commercially built unit - anything designed around a bucket will work perfectly well!).
The main issue is to separate solid waste from urine. Its best not to collect urine but to pipe it directly to plants/ garden / waste pipe. There are several viable strategies for separating the two.
Most people produce a small matchbox sized amount of solid waste per day once the water has been removed, its surprising how little space you actually need.
To give an idea, i built 2 waste collection areas, 1 cubic metre each. It would take 6-8 people a year (with toilet paper) to fill one cube, then switch to the other bin for a year. After year 2, the first bin could be emptied by hand, just fresh smelling compost ready for the garden.
In terms of smell, wood ash is perfect. Reduces ALL odour and adds phosphate to the compost. I have never known a smell issue with a toilet where most urine is separated, and wood ash is used. And some urine can be included in the mix, especially of toilet paper is used (and the ash soaks more liquid.)
My suggestion: keep it simple, keep it cheap and keep it dry.
om shanti
VM

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Thanks for the info, planet2 and Vidya, could be useful. I'm aware of the problem mentioned about the flooding in the spring, because I noticed that went the soil gets saturated, the water in the ground can back up and flood the septic tank. Really the septic system is obsolete because quite often, it pollutes the ground.

Vidya, the simple system you mention works, but the people are still use to the convenience of indoor plumbing, so I'm trying to come up with a solution for that if possible.

The link to magnegas also triggers me to lok into the manure biogas processor, which would also provide methane for cooking. This may turn out to be the best solution, because it still provides the convenience of indoor plumbing, and there is gas for cooking and compost also for the vegetables after due process.

Some links for people interested:

An overview report:
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:...&client=safari

Info to build (it's also a lot cheaper than the commercial ones):
http://www.ruralcostarica.com/biogas.html
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...sters/MD3.html

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi Northern Santuary,

This may sound ignorant, but would there be some odd smell cooking with methane?

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

For the system I am suggesting the indoor plumbing needs to be bypassed, or just used as a urine disposal system, which is kinda wasteful as diluted urine is such a good fertiliser. I have seen several approaches to indoor toilets, but all bypass the conventional toilet system. One system builds up a wooden frame around the existing toilet and utilises a bucket to collect solids. You sit or squat at some height off the floor, but this is no hardship. A bucket will need to be emptied weekly most likely, unless a larger storage unit can be used. It is always easier to leave the solid waste in situ until it has composted naturally, but this isnt always possible indoors; size being the restricting factor.
Urine, in all these sytems, is simply piped to the garden, that is a very simple job. Handwashing grey water is piped to the same source as the urine, providing the dilution, though some plants, such as comfrey, will take concentrated waste water with no difficulty.
Biogas seems like a good idea, but it is is not so simple in reality. In china they just make enough methane if they compost all vegetable and food matter AND garden compost as well as faecal material AND have a pig, with pig wastes entered into the same system. Otherwise there is simply too little methane to make the system viable. Although not always possible, wood is the best fuel for cooking and heating, and the ash is so useful for treating the composted material.
Also with biogas you need a large storage area, if you can even consider this sort of storage size then compost toilet space will be easily achieved.
VM

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi Vidya Moksha, do you have some drawings, some blueprints for constructing such toilets? I would be interested in constructing myself such devices, just be able in case SHTF, repair, service and do maintenance myself.

All the best!

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

I have a great book:nono:(everyone who knows me knows I have a book on Everything!!!). Anyway this book is called "The Humanure Handbook" by Joseph Jenkins. Its fabulous (if any book on poos can be fabulous!:mfr_omg:)Covers all aspects of dealing with human waste by a person who has been using these systems for years. Told with knowledge and humour.:thumb_yello:

Cheers

Carmen

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

I have a photo of my first toilet, which i could maybe post (retake it with a dig. camera)...and maybe also there are some images i could dig out...
However, the principle is extremely simple, let me see if I can describe the basic design. if you need more let me know.
Imagine 2 cubes next to each other, say a nominal 1 metre cube. On the upper surface of each cube cut a hole, upon which one toilet will sit. The other hole is capped for now. Now create an entrance to the cubes on the front faces of each cube, this is the access to empty the compost. Employ a door to this entrance, and try and make it air tight to prevent flies getting in. (it can be siliconed, access is once per year!)
Use one cube until it is full, then switch the toilet and the cap over.
That's the entire concept.
However! both cubes need to be vented in some way (with vent pipes capped against rainwater and screened against flies).
Also urine needs to be separated, either by employing a separate urinal (some urine in the solid box is ok)..or by understanding that both men and women defecate backwards and urinate forwards, so various collectors/splitters can be devised.
Of course, above the cubes u need a roof, either a tarp/sheet/tent structure or a constructed super structure.
I built a shower/bath and toilet system in the same block.
It is better NOT to dig into the ground but to rest the cubes on the ground and build up around them, so the entrance needs to be from a raised level or steps have to be climbed.
Its very simple..
VM

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

I forgot, i posted one already lol, in my album called zonca
http://projectavalon.net/forum/pictu...pictureid=7140
this is a toilet with a view! No roof, but hey, what a view.
The square toilet sits on a hollow stone column that is about 10m high, this toilet never needs emptying.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

What a great toilet, one with a view!! thanks Vidya

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

humanurehandbook.com

Here is the website where you can read the book Carmen recommended online. (The Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins)

Interesting, well worth reading. Good for a starter system until something more sophisticated is put in place.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

And I forgot to mention in the previous post: watch the videos (left margin on web page) humanurehandbook.com/video

Lots of good info here also.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Sorry to harp on about such a delicate subject but to me its vitally important. We are so used to getting "rid' of our own waste without any thought of where it goes and what it is doing to the environment. Another excellent book on the subject of humane waste, uses and pollution is "Solviva" The author makes a great point that sewage systems are the biggest polluters in our environment and have ruined the foreshore around where she lived at Martha's Vineyard. Whether that is still the case I do not know, but her pics in the book were very revealing. Joseph Jenkins has a term called 'fecalphobia',. We need to deal sensibly with this tendency in us. Its about responsiblilty of dealing with the effects of our so called civilized living.

Cheers

Carmen

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

I have worked as a marine biologist for over 20 years and sewage pollution is the biggest problem I have to deal with. We take 2 items essential for life (water and fertilizer) and we mix them together to form a poison. Its crazy, really crazy. Composting toilets should be compulsory and anyone professing to be environmentally aware should not be using a water toilet.
Of course we now have another crazy problem, the faecal material is actually a food source to many organisms, especially worms. Birds eat worms. Bird poulations grow, In the Uk the bird lobby is particularly powerful and they want to see more birds, whatever the environmental damage! lol, crazy world we live in.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Thanks Carmen, I found the book on Scribd, for who is interested:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/270721/Humanure-Handbook

Though, we would appreciate the things tried by our fellows Avalonians, they say are working fine.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi Northern Santuary,

This may sound ignorant, but would there be some odd smell cooking with methane?

Natural gas is essential methane; it's colorless and odorless. It's the hydrogen sulfate compounds that give the rotten egg smell, if it exists.

Vidya, your picture is worth a thousand words. By myself, I was using that (a toilet seat on top of a hole in the ground), but for 40 people it's a bigger problem. :original: The biogas digester can be made to work in a commuity; I'll have to investigate it, but some forum people here have the know how.

/NS

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Biogas reclamation is by no means hard; you just have to know what you're doing and make sure the calculations are correct. It also helps if you have the space as well as a population to feed it.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

with 40 people biogas may be an option, i would guess that centralizing the waste will be the biggest problem, handling fresh faecal matter should be avoided.
With so many people a compost sytem would work really well. I had originally thought to use the compost on my farm, but was amazed just how little volume it produced.
I would think with 40 people the construction of a toilet block would be particularly easy. Just double the bins in each cubicle. So for example, in one block have 3 toilets, thats 6 bins, 3 active, 3 in storage. As a rule of thumb it will take 6 people 1 year to fill one 1m3 collector. Asuming half male and female (if you want to separate the block) then 2 toilet blocks each with 3 toilets (6 bins) would be about right (you need a year really for the compost to activate, unless you employ solar collectors). This would rquire a structure 6 m long and at least 1m deep, not such a big structure really. Of couse several smaller units could be used, but 40 people would work best with 6 toilets.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi Vidya,

This is in Canada, so there is the cold if you go outside. Most of the people are coming from the city, so prefer access from their own units (if it is a family unit). I was thinking of using a duel low flush toilet system (6 /3 pints) or separating the urine out completely. There will also be vegetable compost going into the digester, so should be able to enhance the slush consistency, also temperature control (insulated and heated) for optimum production.

/NS

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Lots of good info here. Here is the link to the video Sunflower was refering to.

http://humanurehandbook.com/videos.html

Cheers

Carmen

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

TtC: Biogas reclamation is by no means hard; you just have to know what you're doing and make sure the calculations are correct. It also helps if you have the space as well as a population to feed it.

Do you see that this is feasible with "flushable toilets", or is it a carry and dump type of a situation. There are 1 pint flush toilets, but it's limited to how far the water can carry the waste. The alternative would be to sit on top of the digester.

/NS

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

It's extremely feasible with flush toilets. I did a fully integrated system for an apartment complex in Canada back about three years ago. Worked wonders, too. I've made adjustments since then, and have an even better one now.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

TtC:It's extremely feasible with flush toilets. I did a fully integrated system for an apartment complex in Canada back about three years ago. Worked wonders, too. I've made adjustments since then, and have an even better one now.

A lot of city people will be happy to hear that. :original:

From the info I read, this is related to the required retention period for the waste to stay in the digester to carry out the process and the needed size of the container to do that.
/NS

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

It depends on how the system is integrated and where the waste is going as an end product. I won't say there is a minimum amount of space required. There are a lot of guiding factors when it comes to this; there is not a "one size fits all" solution, by any means. Ah, the wonders of math.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Good Luck with it. Separating urine is always a good idea. My last 2 cents: One compost toilet per unit will need wood ash to remove the smell. The unit would be raised off the ground, could include bathroom. Pros: cheap, very easy, nothing to go wrong, non polluting, 'install and forget'; one unit will take a couple of years to fill it.
The digester should work also, but more complicated, more expensive, not a passive system (will need maintenance), produces a toxic sludge...but gives you methane.
If you have a ready supply of tree wood (forest garden anyone?) then I wouldnt even consider the digester. Keep it simple, keep it cheap, always a good mantra when building.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Vidya:Keep it simple, keep it cheap, always a good mantra when building


Keeping it simple is good too. Here's a commercial product of what I think you're talking about, but I couldn't believe it is close to $1000 CAN.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007...oop_on_com.php

I didn't understand why the digester output would be toxic.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

When the sludge has 'finished' it shouldnt be toxic, but won't it be a constant feed? fresh sewage mixed with water is a toxic mix. Any seepage from the digester will contaminate the area around the storage unit, then it depends on local geology as to how far the polluted area spreads.

I would always build my own toilet, its simple woodwork, or simple wood and brick work. I wouldnt buy any commercial products - but thats just me. Dont collect urine, it needs to be a passive process (it's fun for a while then its just another chore, when there is much more to do!), pipe it to the garden directly.

For a year or so, while I was building up my farm, I just used a plank of wood with a hole cut in it over a bucket. It wasnt laziness that it wasnt upgraded, but usefulness. We would plan out our tree planting and dig a 1 m hole, half fill with the bucket contents and then with soil, and then plant a tree on top. Simple, incredibly cheap and most effective/ useful. Wood ash negates all smell. I only ended up building up the toilet block for the indoor shower/bath option.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

It depends what is meant by "toxic." It is a matter of perspective. It would most likely be toxic to humans and most mammals as well as fish, but not to worms, bacteria, some insects, and the like.

Large quantities of waste, human or otherwise, have been know to produce H2S (hydrogen sulfide gas) which is extremely dangerous. I used to have to wear a detector in sour gas plants for just such a reason. H2S is colorless, odorless, and a little heavier than air, so short people suffocate first. It's supposed to be like going to sleep.

I even designed an extraction process so H2S could be removed from the methane for cooking and heating on biomass reclamation units. It's about 98% efficient and doesn't take up too much space.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

i have a property, i need to get out of in canada
it needs a little work,
so, i can maximize my profits getting out

then, i'd have money - lots of it

to create a radiant zone, here in canada
and/or align with the project in PQ
(or do both) or, perhaps, consider another alternative
if anyone is at lose ends - and, has skills for renos
(floors/painting - simple stuff)
and, need a place in canada, to run to,
this could be a good option for them

[ solicitation is not permitted here, so the bulk of the post has been removed if you want to help Susan contact her at workingwonders@aol.com - A.. ]

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Of course. I wasnt sure of the depth of inquiry in the first question...its toxic in the sense that it contains gut bacteria (eg E.coli) which are directly harmful to humans and other vertebrates if ingested. The usual source of ingestion is polluted water supply. It is also possible for some nasty viruses to be present.
In another sense it is 'toxic' because it has a high BOD and COD (Biological and Chemical Oxygen Demand) which means bacteria and certain chemicals 'digest' (or oxidize) the faecal matter, and in so doing the use up all available oxygen, which is why most aquatic organisms suffer, many are extremely sensitive to reduced oxygen levels.
On the other hand, many animals thrive in such conditions, they see the sewage as food and they dont mind the reduced oxygen so much.
The 'toxic' elements are contained within the sewage water, so when this contaminated water seeps, or leaks from the digester it spreads to the surrounding area. This is no real problem unless local groundwater is contaminated in the process.
Mixing sewage with water is always potentially hazardous, and always wasteful of water. Dry toilets are the better solution, i believe.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

If done properly, there should be no leaks from the digester, whatsoever. And I have removed the hazardous issues from my system.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

I dont know the system. Surely the water is just a carrier of the faecal matter, and its the faecal material that produces the methane. But the digester must be a finite size that will soon be filled with water from the toilets? what then? surely there must be an overflow of some kind, or the water must be separated at some point in the process, and this will be contaminated water...of course this could be easily piped to a reed bed...
In China they use dry toilets, then they manually transfer the faecal matter to a pit, which I suppose is the 'digester' in that system. When the pit material is spent they ship it onto the land for fertilizer and start a new pit. But this system is labour intensive and potentially hazardous as raw faecal material is constantly being handled.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Of course it's potentially hazardous, but it seems everyone wants to think inside the box, still. I, on the other hand, have thought of something entirely different.

It took me six months to design my system and another three for a working prototype. Now it's patent pending. What is more than just a carrier, it's life.

Re: Radiant zones and communities building..where are we up to ?
 

Hi Vidya, what you describer is what they call a batch process, which is labor intensive. The other is a continuous load process, which is what TtC is describing, I believe. Sounds like an ideal biological machine/process. The end product of the process has to be biologically safe for humans to be released into the environment.

It was good to have this discussion. Thanks to all the post contributors.