Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Well, Bam-Bam has pulled it off. He defied centuries of racism, inspired large numbers of apathetic young people to participate in the political system, and defeated a tough opponent - John McCain really did represent the better elements of the Republican party. Obama did it while distancing himself from the loonier elements of his own party (i.e., Reid and Pelosi), and for the most part, without a great deal of help from the most popular former democratic president still alive.

Despite what many readers here, and folks across the conspiracy research spectrum have argued or blindly believe, Obama is not a Mason. At the very time in people's lives where they drift toward secret societies like the Masons, Obama was exploring his own disdain for the culture he saw around him, and cavorted with radicals expounding the need to fundamentally change everything in America - our culture, our economy, our spirits. Obama was smoking pot and being an angry black youth while George Bush was defending Texas from the Vietnamese on orders of his daddy. There is a POSSIBLE Masonic connection via his wife, but Obama himself is not a Mason. He may be an unknowing puppet, but not consciously a tool of the power structure he just won an election campaigning against - he believes himself to be his own man. I tend to agree with him.

And therein lies the rub. My biggest fear about Obama is not this "anti-Christ" silliness making the rounds, his supposed connections with Islam or Masonry, or the "secret socialist" charge that flies out of the mouths of windy conservative pundits like Limbaugh or Savage; rather, I fear that Obama is truly a break with the program - the "Matrix" so many here discuss - and as such, will be taken from us via assassination, by desperate corporate/PTB interests, some right wing nut job wishing to kill him for their religious fantasies, or some sheet wearing skin-head from the "Kill the Darkies" militia.

If you think about the numeric and symbolic elements of the PTB rituals, the danger to Obama becomes all the more important. The similarities to JFK are eerie. Obama is the first sitting Senator to be elected to the presidency since JFK. "Hope" and "change" were the central themes of both campaigns. Exactly 48 years seperates their elections (perhaps the eXchanger could explain that one). The moment Obama comes out and gives a press conference that asks the media and the American people to aid him in bringing more transparency to the system, watch out - they killed Kennedy a few weeks after he did the same. A similar fate for Obama would reenact the blood sacrifice made in 1963. If the number 48 truly has meaning, Obama might want to beef up his security in 2011 (the year he will be holding campaign rallies out in the open).

Now, with all that said, my other fear is that Obama will concentrate his energies on "fixing" the "broken" mechanisms of modern Capitalism (which are not really broken - this is how Capitalism operates), instead of breaking old paradigms and trying something new. Now that the federal government is in the banking business, he has an opportunity to experiment. Targeted, interest-free lending for the lower end of the income spectrum? Finally federalizing the "federal" reserve? Forcing corporations to recognize that the status that they have enjoyed since the American Civil War also comes with the obligations of citizenship? And that the inequality inherent in the Capitalist system is the very thing that allows for corporate profits, which makes it their duty to aid in the relief of the very poverty their profits are dependent upon? Or, will the morally bankrupt stock traders, investment bankers, and corporate figureheads be the only beneficiaries of his economic policies? I certainly "hope" not.

How do you all feel about Bam-Bam, as his presidency relates to our economic system? Will we see fundamental change? Or will it be business as usual?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Japan and Hong Kong are down 1000...

somebody better shut down the short sales quick or we're going to have a record drop today...

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Hire me to build a building, and I shall build one. Pay me to tear it down. I shall do so. And I shall grow wealthier despite nothing else having been accomplished.

Whether there is capitalism or some form of regulated capitalism, it seems to me that there ought to be an element of conscience, of reasonable purpose for the investment of capital. It is human selfishness and immorality that leads to economic crises. However, one could also argue that human selfishness and immorality are the pre-existing conditions of either economic model.

If new wealth is to be created without seizing upon new natural resources, then it can be accomplished by improving the efficient management of existing resources. Thus, knowledge and experience--intellectual capital--would be the new catalyst for wealth, although this might be more likely to lead to a redistribution of wealth within the system, rather that the wealth of the system itself expanding.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

New World Order Plans for the World Economy
http://www.cosmicawareness.org November 2008 Issue
There will eventually be five social/economic/political regions. The European Union has already been formed. The North American Union is the next. It is due by 2010. Then there will be the South American, the Asian, and then the Austro/Asian regions. Australia would fit into the Asian community. There is also seen a region around Africa/the Middle East, in that region. Eventually these five regions will fall under the One World Government, The New World Order as proposed by the elite cabal, those who are in charge. They have already divided up the world. They have already planned its future. Events such as the collapse of the American economy is designed towards creating a situation that will eventually lead to the proposal of a union of the three nations in North America, for it is seen that the Canadian economy and the Mexican economy will also be affected by the collapse, but not to the same degree, and the bailout will eventually be require being bailed out through the unification of the three nations, the proposal stating that the three together will be stronger and more stable once again than three who are separately struggling to endure the storms that are raging at the moment.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Looks like you were right Rocky - the worst consecutive two day drop in almost thirty years . . .

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Welcome Practicioner,

You are indeed right, and your words highlight my own inner confliction over Capitalism. On paper and in theory, Capitalism can be an efficient way for us to engage in economic activity. But, given human nature, it becomes a form of enslavement. I really like what you said about intellectual capital. I don't know if you read any theoretical anthropology, but there is this concept of the "thought economy" that is directly related to what you wrote. It harkens back to pre-Capitalist modes of production and exchange - a world in which value was dependent upon the relationships that produced and moved goods, not materialism or function/use.

I would argue that the primacy of "intellectual capital" would not only redistribute wealth (thus combatting the inherent inequality upon which the Capitalist system is dependent), but might actually serve to REDEFINE the very meaning of wealth. How we make this transition in a world where intellectual creativity and development is mistrusted and actually attacked as elitism, however, is beyond me.

Again, welcome Practicioner, and come back soon.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Welcome to the thread Kem (I almost forgot about your post, so I apologize for not responding):sorry:,

Communism as has been practiced, has been authoritarian, but you are correct; Marx's vision of a Communist world (what little he offered) would ideally not be authoritarian. Thanks for keeping me honest . . .

Liberalism too, has failed us. Although I tend to think we are on verge of something new - a movement perhaps - that leaves the hollowness of liberalism behind, while creating something new out of liberalism's emphasis on humanitarianism. That is my hope anyway.

Thanks for posting, and please, come back. My goal for this thread was to discuss the future of our economic behavior no matter what happens to us as a species, and I welcome anything you can offer.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

We are all going to die, so why do you guys care?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

This isn't the end, it's only the beginning...

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Greetings Voltron,

I found your info interesting, but I'm not sure I totally buy it all.

As I have said for a while, our economic system is ALREADY the perfect cage - most people in the United States and the western world honestly believe that the system as-is is the epitome of freedom, but the truth is that very few economic decisions we make on a daily basis are truly free decisions. From paying bills to buying a pack of gum, our free-will only gets limited exercise. I try to put myself in the PTB shoes - this gobal economic downturn is causing people who would normally not think about such things to pay closer attention to their political leaders, corporate activity, etc. For a group that depends on their ability to operate out of the shadows, their cover is shrinking in the light of scrutiny. I see the current econoic problem as a window of opportunity - but the window can only stay open so long.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I have been reading some of the economic threads, and have a quick thought to share.

The majority here on Avalon believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered. It has been thrown together by the NWO/Illuminati/PTB groups as a way to consolidate power and achieve a reduction in global population, etc. If this this is the interpretation that is true, then we are all doomed, right? We are watching it happen right before our eyes, and there is nothing that we can do except buy our "I love the NWO" t-shirts now and select where we want our chip, or prepare to die horribly - in a concentration camp, or on the streets. If they can engineer something like that, and keep the artificiality of the whole thing a secret from us, then their power is unlimited, and there is absolutely nothing we can do.

Now there is a small minority here on Avalon, myself included, who sees the current global collapse as not engineered - a goof made by the lazy, distracted shepards of our age - but a mistake nonetheless. It represents a crisis in leadership in whatever PTB organization one chooses to believe in. The system as is/was, was one where we drove the Pinto, aspired to drive the Lexus, quietly worked like dogs to get that Lexus, and shrugged with indifference whenever a "third-world" nation got bombed to keep the system alive. It bred docility and allegience. But it is falling apart, and people are taking notice, getting angry, and pushing for something different. I think the PTB are fighting to maintain the control they have, not seeking to consolidate.

In any event, if the latter of the two scenarios above is true, it represents a small window of opportunity to change the entire system. While life might be unpleasant in a "depression" economy, perhaps it will foster a dramatic shift in how we use resources, and treat each other as human beings.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

WORD :original: I feel like it is probably enginered but either way you are right historycircus.:thumb_yello:

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Explain. Our species dies - it is what we do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to leave the best world we can for those who come after.

I'm just not sure what you are getting at.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Today I listened to G.W. Bush, our president defect, speak about how "economic growth" should be the goal, how "free markets" and "free people" were key to fostering that growth, and how people shouldn't question the "principles of the Capitalist system." It was an NPR piece that mentioned that the G-20, or whatever bllsht the PTP want to call wrangling the top seven brink-of-the-industrial-plateau nations and hangers on. Anyway, it sounds to me like he is still full of garbage. He is truly a clueless maniac - even the PTB see it.

Do they think we are fools? "Growth," for instance, is a loaded concept. There was a time in our histories in which the concept of economic "growth" defied natural law. Exchange, feudalism, Mercantilism - all systems were connected enough to the natural cycles of the planet (barring feudalism's and Mercantilism's aspirations to the contrary) to know that growth, of populations and riches, for the express goal of expansion in and of itself, was impossible. eXchangers were happy to eXist - they recognized their condition as a gift from higher powers, and while not above the emotional whims that take men to war and move them to peace, their eXistance was recognized as balance. Feudals were slaves who enjoyed moments of freedom, but recognized their own slavery as a condition of balance at the time. Mercantilists were war hawks that believed that whatever tactics increased their own piece of the limited pie were justified, but they did believe pie size (i.e., global resources) limited - expansion was impossible. Lucky for them Christobal de Colombo (or Colon) made that argument moot. The pie suddenly got way bigger than they could concieve. Thus, the European settlers of the Americas murdered and raped their way acrossssssssss the landscape, believing that "growth" was now a natural principle. It is no surprise that Adam Smith could make his argument so well in a day and age when maps of the entire globe remained undrawn (at least to the mainstream). Colonialism had allowed economists to disregard Mercantilist theory as "archaic," and the earlier exchange economy was virtually unknown by them - and given their feeling of superiority over the past, they would have dismissed it anyway. Colonialism gave birth to the economics of "growth," which is the fundamental building block of Capitalist theory.

But now we have the maps. Even with the addition of planets that can be mined for their resources, we know that our society as is cannot grow and maintain the balance necessary to ensure the continuation of the species.

Is there something redeeming in the Capitalist system that I have missed? Can we move forward as a species adhering to the market system? I do not think we can. We must figure out how to get along on this mud-ball with finite resources. I think that is where we are going - headed toward making such decisions, not as ethnicities or nations, but as a species.

For the die hard Capitalists, let me ask this: what happens when someone wins? If Capitalism is dependent upon competition, what happens if someone wins? Do you know who controls 80% of the textbook trade in the United States? Google it, make the connections, and you will be horrified who the CEO turns out to be. Eventually, someone wins the race, and unless there is a system in place to make sure the winner gives up his crown for the next race, we are in trouble. I think our economic system in the United States is about to undergo the same trials that our political system once did.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Whenever someone tries to reassure me about something is when I really start worrying!

Is Obama being set up to be the next FDR, whose task is to save capitalism?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

If you like what you read here, I recommend you read this other thread. I just contributed to it, and Heretic is asking us worthwhile questions to consider:

http://www.projectavalon.net/forum/s...ed=1#post80142

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I think Obama, like a lot of others, believes in Capitalism, and yeah, he is probably going to waste a great many of those first days in office trying to fix it. I know he supports a GM bailout, but that is because he needs Union support - what's another TWENTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS, huh?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I got a good scenario for those in the US, like me....The government takes MY tax money, GIVES it to the bank, then the bank DENIES me from borrowing it back with interest. How the &%^#@ does that equate? I'm tired of the government handing out my money and then not letting me have it back.

I don't know how much longer the sheeple can take this madness.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Welcome Mr. X,

Your frustration is being amplified throughout the western world, and I understand completely. The banks who are guilty of criminal behavior are going to get their bailout, despite their bad behavior. The auto industry will get their bailout, despite their own failure to recognize that four dollar a gallon gasoline might make buying that new SUV an unattractive prospect for potential new car buyers, and their lobbying fight in D.C. to prevent better fuel efficiency laws. Credit Card companies now have their hands out, and did you hear Master Card will soon become an investment bank?

But the people who took out bad mortages, racked up credit card debt, and will lose their jobs will get nothing. They are the one who will be expected to suck it up and show some "personal responsibility," while Wall Street - the ones who promoted such bad behavior - will be cashing their welfare checks from the government.

I am so angry just thinking about it, I'm cutting my post short.

Peace

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Capitalism, FOX, and Reality TV

The FOX information control and manipulation corporation has an "entertainment" arm that has given us such wonderful treasures as "American Idol," "Paradise Island," and who could forget the television masterpiece, "Hole in the Wall"? In this tradition of excellence, they are about to debut their new endeavor, "The Secret Millionaire." The premise of the show is relatively simple: A millionaire lives and works amongst the working class for a week, and then picks the person most "deserving" (this is the actual word FOX is using in the previews) to get a monetary prize from said millionaire when he reveals his true identity. How noble of FOX! How philanthropic! What a wonderful thing to do for hard working poor people - give them money as a reward for the outward expression of morality and camaraderie! Can FOX save the world?

By now, dear reader, you may have detected the slight hint of sarcasm, which is odd, because the sarcasm should jump out and slap you around a little. How could such a seemingly innocent act of goodness be interpreted as anything but benevolent? As humanitarian?

The psychology upon which the show is based is a damaged one - it reinforces debased cultural norms as just that: normal. It is perfectly acceptable in our society to wear down the body and let the intellect stagnate for the procurement of meager amounts of capital that essentially only allows for the person to exist - to barely "make ends meet." We wil probably be introduced to characters that have attempted to alleviate such economic pressures with credit cards and debt economics. The "Average American" will be a hard working, barely surviving, debt saddled individual, but with a "heart of gold." The ugliness of it all, however, will be obscurred by the prospect of someone "good" being rewarded with a one way ticket out of American economic hell. We'll be distracted from the big picture as if we were marks in a televised game of three-card-monty.

Then, it will be reinforced, that it is only natural for the poor to want more. Who wouldn't? Beans and weenies versus lobster, right? Economic aspiration - the accumulation of wealth - is the good capitalist way, right? Forget that class is the primary (but not only) social division between Americans today. As a culture we have made great strides in defeating the negative "-isms" of our past: racism (or more accurately, ethnic differences), sexism, religious differences of all stripes. But class remains the dominant organizational paradigm for our society. Thus, what makes "Secret Millionaire" so novel is that a millionaire would mix with the working class so, but never forget, at the end of the show, the millionaire will "rescue" his new found buddies from their harsh economic circumstances. That someone would need "rescuing" from one of the fundamental laws of our economic system (wealth will accumulate in only a small percentage of the system) should make Americans angry, but alas, they will only clap.

Then there is the issue of morality. Most religions and spiritual systems equate morality with sacrifice. Being moral is often not easy, nor profitable. It is telling that this show will reward it with money, the ultimate tool of corruption. If you're good, you get paid. Miracles will happen for those who are unsatisfied with their lot, so long as they keep feeding the system that exploits their desperation and desires. My fear is that America will say: "awe, that was nice," and then get up at 5:30 the next morning, trudge to their 10 hours of lever pulling down at the cannery, all the while dreaming that the person who moves into that foreclosed home next door pulls up in a moving van that says FOX on the side.

If we are to survive as a nation, but more importantly, as a species, we will need to transform our world into one that sees philanthropy as a failure of the very system itself. Philanthropy such as this is like Morphine, it makes you feel good, but only masks the pain - making one either not feel, or not care, about the real problem. And to televise it is sheer psychological vulgarity, and is proof that there really was not a philanthropic spirit in the development of this show in the first place.

Shame on FOX. Again.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

If the grocery stores close and the system goes down.. are you kidding?

Besides there is good reason to believe this is planned chaos so we will be shooting and robbing in the streets so marshal law can be enforced.

Have you talked to people about this? I have and many of them say they are willing to shoot any person approaching their home for fear of theft. And that is exactly what will happen.

A friend of mine told me last year that he personally knows someone who was with Bush 1 on airforce 1 during his last campaign and he told my friend that there will be blood flowing in the streets of America by 2009.

You will have to take my word on that last statement as I can not give you names.

These are serious times we are facing and the biggest problem is that it is not a level playing field, there are those forces that desire this to happen. This is planned so it could be Mad Max time.


:lightsabre:


A hungry man
with a gun in his hand
will not ask where your head's at
or where you stand...

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Hi K, and welcome to the thread:welcomeani:,

There are several good reasons to "believe" a scenario like that, but I want something more tangible than "belief;" real, definite proof for the engineered economic and social collapse, all for the sake of martial law, does not make sense from a rational point of view. The government could do all that nasty stuff relatively unopposed right this very minute - a few militia groups here and there would emerge, but they would be easily crushed. Why wait for rioting, and when people are mad - take them by surprise! Right now! But they haven't, and given the control they already have over us, I don't see them rocking the boat - they are trying to fix the system as is BECAUSE it is ultimate control, not trying to crash it for more.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

"Brother, can you spare $34 billion?"

If the current meetings between the U.S. auto industry and Congress are not indicative of economic manipulation, I don't know what is. The "outrage" the media was prodding us to feel a mere two weeks ago is transforming into "sympathy" as we watch it all, and do nothing. As if driving a hybrid to the meeting was anything more than an inconvenience. Make no mistake, they will get their money - Congress gave in thrice to corporate demands over the last two months (AIG, Freddie and Fannie, and the bailout), and will give in again. Forget that pyramid at the top for the moment, and think about those layers close to it. I'm guessing that is where the U.S. Congress ranks, and make no mistake, most want a promotion - especially this close to the "end" (however you want to define it is fine by me). Anyway, Congress will do what they are told, and the auto pageant will be complete. Orchestration at its finest. And shame on all those who don't publicly act against it.

And its all right out there for everyone to see.:shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked: