Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Check out my GW Bush track, i manipulated him to finally tell the truth about what he's been doing!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FB6e03rXyBI

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I tend to agree. For some who may read that statement, and infer that those are only the words of an anti-patriot, such a proposition would be uncomfortable. That would be the pre-programmed response typical of the inheritor of centuries of external conditioning for that very purpose.

But, if one is predisposed toward the Lockean persuasion - that humankind is inherently good in a state of nature - a little anarchy might just be the needed prescription for a very sick world. In such a state, evil either rules completely, or is ostracized to the margins of society - either way would be more preferred by me, instead of the hazy, murky, confused world where all claim to be good, but publicly celebrate evil (as relative as those two terms are).

Best,

Historycircus

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

You may get your wish, but as they say, be careful what you wish for. Anarchy will more likely look like Road Warrior than the Summer of Love.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I'll go one further and say it WILL look like Road Warrior - with complete collapse of the system, and billions of human beings who will fall back on what they have been programmed to do (follow the leader), and leaders who have already proven that they are willing to do whatever to whoever to make sure their Bentlys get properly waxed, the future will be a violent, unpleasant place for those stuck in the orbit of them all.

But it won't be like that everywhere. There will be pockets that survive where new forms of economy (a term implied to include production, exchage, consumption, distribution, regimes of value, etc. - not the simplistic notion of buying and selling) rise and thrive. Let me take this opportunity to sort of steer this thread back to its original intent: to discuss the possible ways in which we - as members of one of these safe/radiant zones - can create a new economy (and all that that term implies), and do so in a fashion, if possible, that avoids the great plague of all historical economic forms - war.

Thoughts? How do we fairly, in a community, produce, exchange, consume, distribute labor, etc. in the most efficient way? Is there a way to do so and avoid the heirarchical and exploitative monstrosities that have resulted?

Some questions to consider, and I welcome all perspectives.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Most respectfully, I inquire:

Upon what proofs and evidence do you base the foundation of the allegation that Anarchy will more likely look like _________________?

Seriously, we in our lifetimes have not, to my knowledge, been exposed to anything that comes close to clean and unfettered anarchy ...

If anyone wants to say, well what about LA in the Rodney King riots, or New Orleans after Katrina, I'd flatly state that each had orchestrated or antagonistic co-intel-pro elements and such, so those sorts of examples don't qualify as potential peeks at anarchy ... why do we carry these fear filled memes of what we would behave like if we were treated as sovereign humans?

Someone please, respond to how we were relatively sane as children without hyper-control paradigms ...

Paraphrasing Ice-T, before he became a TeeVee 'star' - "Damn, shoulda killed me last year" (what happened Echelon, I'm still here, not disappeared, is it ok to discuss anarchy now, the behavior of 'governments'?)

~ love and namaste, my sisters and brothers ~

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Let us envision this, and support a stated goal of Avalon.

I have started some community websites and begun networking with folks contemplating the physical and spiritual aspects of how to manage, not manhandle, community make-up.

The conundrum always comes back to how to keep peace and sovereignty in parallel. We are not there yet, and have not yet come close, beyond setting the framework of the QUESTIONS:

1) How do we develop a flat / horizontal / rhizome network of members in a community and provide leadership and guidance without authority?

2) How do we prevent rainbows from becoming drainblows?

3) How do we reflect the change we want within, in response to dissonant and aggressive members?

4) What do we do when the psychopath (organic portal, demon, brute) comes to town?

Huge Questions, requiring CREATIVE new-mind / heart-view answers ....

Shall we take this discussion here, as our friend, HistoryCircus, has suggested?

~ love and namaste sisters and brothers ~

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

The idea of sovereignty ( to be self governing ) includes not being controlled by outside forces... The word "controlled" is at hand to contemplate. To be self governing is already in our "world" is it not? To be controlled then, might be the subjective "ism" of cognitive struggle. "Affected" is more adequate, should the "system" fall into chaos, anarchy (no rulers) is then a 'given' except we would all be looking over our shoulders, to be sure, to fend off residuals of the existing paradigm.... There can be no transition to without the former presence of mind...

which leads to "how can we create a new economy"?.... how to manage the affairs of being alive!.... w/thrift/frugality/mgmt of resources.... but as above stated... w/fairness <<< there ya go! This mindset is fruited by the former presence of mind... what do I get and have you earned your part?... what is fair?

Each being has their basic needs met FIRST, and that's a task in itself> starting with self.....until that is a reality, the rest will not be realized but I expect we would marvel w/the creative fruition of minds set free of want.

Isn't it interesting that we talk about how we might extend to others any surplus... has anyone here ever grown a garden??? ... and had surplus...??? You are happy to give away (be rid of actually) ...

questions 1 - 4 posted above... I would asnwer that you act from a grounded, centered space. Are you struggling w/the possibility of having to kill someone? That is what I sense from your questions. And we've all considered these possibilities considering the global situation.

To know thyself only includes things encountered... this is wisdom.. for I cannot know my capacity until ....

I'm very tired, so pardon me, please fill in the blanks. May love reign over you!!!!!

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Exellent post Z and EpiphaMe.

Notions of "fairness" and equity will be the filters through which we share ideas and engage in economic activity. It is what we know/been programmed to believe as truth. Some may be able to operate without those filters, but most will be forced to walk that fine line between the old paradigm and the new - a thought I haven't really considered EpiphaMe, and for that I thank you.

Communites of only a few families and individuals might be so preoccupied by subsistence, especially at the outset of whatever events might necessitate such a radical shift in economic behavior, that such filters of concern will be moot. As an optomist (despite allegations on other threads accusing me of being a peddaler of doom), I think that no matter what comes, the human race will survive and prosper. Eventually these smaller communities will reach out and find each other, and despite the vulgar blight our modern cities have become, and collectivization will naturally happen. Specialization in labor and mass production need not be negative, for if done with a conscious respect for both the environment and the producers, it leads to efficient production and lesiure time - the latter being essetial to the building of culture. After all, a future of all work and no play will breed resentment. I'm not suggesting bread and circuses for control (the current paradigm), I'm suggesting that the artists and poets of the future will need a little down time to practice their crafts. Chances are, when a few hundred people get together, a division and specialization of labor will allow for efficient resource management and foster individual sovereignty.

But what do we do when one chooses to excercise personal sovereignty in such a way as to harm members of the group (rape, robbery, murder, etc.)? Successful economic production in a free society will undoubtedly, over time, give individuals a lot more time to find ways to exercise free will, and we cannot assume that everyone, at all times, will act in a way that is neutral or beneficial to society. To have poets, one must brace for rapists. What does that say about our fundamental nature as a species? Does that mean that becuase some at the top of the social pyramid have hijacked our mechanisms of economy, crime and punishment, politics, and culture, that the whole or parts of our system are irrelevent and should be abandoned? If society reemerges with the collective experiences of collapse, and consciously rebuilds with a new and more enlightened mindset, could we not rinse, if not repeat?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

As I have sat and watched the crash of the global markets over the last few days, I have come to a couple conlusions that I would love to get some responses to.

First, the market system will not survive this global collapse. The only way to preserve any semblence of the system is extreme government intervention, on a global scale. The global economic system that will emerge from the crisis will not be market capitalism. Make no mistake, the PTB will claim, eventually, that they have preserved it, but the intervention that is now taking place will render Adam Smith's "invisible hand" intangible as well. I think, barring global cataclysm, we are well on our way to a global socialism - a circumstance that immediately puts China and Russia definatively at the top of the global economic food chain. My question to you all: are we watching the vindication of Karl Marx in the Western world?

Secondly, I do not believe that the current global economic crisis is engineered - a thought which I know is anathema to many on this forum.

Hear me out.

The market system - Capitalism - has been the most effective tool that the PTB have had. We are exploited, but we call it freedom. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we are taught, from very early on, that participating in the market system is an act of freedom. But your participatory freedom is directly proportional to your income in this society. For instance, a poor man and a rich man are both cited for driving drunk - for both it is the second offense, and the incidents are six months apart. The man who can afford to retain a private-practice lawyer will ultimately not see the inside of a cell, while the poor man, in almost all states in the union will. No one making less than fifty thousand a year could even entertain running for the Congress or the Presidency. One's income determines where you live, what you eat, what or if you drive, how you spend your leisure time, where you get educated and if you get to go to college, and it determines your access to quality health care. Yet, we are told we are free. And when someone turns their back on the system, for spiritual or ideological reasons, they become outcasts - percieved as wierd at best, seditionists and treasonous at worst.

The point of the paragraph above is to point out that the PTB already has the greatest system of control ever devised - a system of control we celebrate. The current financial crisis IS a crisis for them - for the people are beginning to wake up and get grumpy. The rumblings of discontent with the Western system grow louder with every ring of the closing bell on Wall Street, and with every trip to the grocery store. Direct control is expensive and messy - you have to herd everyone into central locations, moniter, chip, discipline, etc. It is difficult to run a prison when the prisoners know they are in prison - there is the endless task of discipline and preventing escape, and nothing is foolproof; sometimes prison riots and escapes happen. It is easier to run a prison in which nobody identifies their experiences as that of an inmate. That is why I don't believe that the current financial crisis has been engineered - What do you all think?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Historycircus,

We meet again! We are watching the vindication of Karl Marx, though not in the way you suggest. He wrote much more about capitalism than socialism, which was only a glimmer in his eye way back then. He delineated the internal contradictions of the system and predicted that it would one day collapse. In that sense, I agree with you that this is not an engineered collapse. This is a controlled demolition, except that they can only control the demolition, they can't keep the building up.

Secondly, Russia and China are not really good examples. They have some aspects of state controlled 'socialism,' but the people are not really in control. That aside, I think the better example is Venezuela. Chavez has been able to parlay his oil revenues to institute some breakthrough redistribution of the wealth. He is always under attack, of course, but has gained some allies in Latin America like Morales.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Welcome back G. You will have to accept my apology, however, for I have not had time to check out those films you suggested. They are on my movie to-do list.

Marx has always recieved his fair share of criticism for his ability to slice and dice the veggies, but never produce a tasteful salad. Neo-Marxists tear him down at the other end of his critique - they say he too easily dismissed pre-capitalist societies as a source for understanding how Capitalism originated in the first place, and thus some of his fundamental assumptions of how the mechanisms of Capitalism work are also flawed. And, there is the notion to consider, that Marx envisioned collapse as a conscious push from the bottom of the Capitalist pyramid, not the result of bungling and rot at the top. His bourgeois, our middle class, is upset about and resisting collapse, instead of initiating it through a unified movement.

I think the ruling class and the ruled have become so dependent upon the market system, the former for control, the latter for survival, that it is hard for me to see engineered collapse as a desireable scenario initiated by either.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

You make some excellent points. Of course your perspective above is based primarily on western industrialized models and not, let's say, Latin America or India, where the ruled are not afraid to take matters in their own hands, like in Cocachamba, Bolivia where they threw out Bechtel or in India, where a mob lynched a CEO that had laid them all off. The sides in those cases were very clear to the people, but have been obscured here in the US. That may change as more and more people become homeless and catch on to what is happening to them and why.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

i'm really very surprised at this conversation. the zionist rothchild gang created marx and communism. they're doing what has to be done to initiate north american union, one world currency,new world order,gaing global domination. funny,israel is probably the only country on the planet faring well(and our tax dollars finance that as well,more than 25 billion a year). maybe, soon the entire planet will bowing to them.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

A real American hero, Ellen Miller, has real solutions regarding accountability by our government and perhaps great ideas for any 'new government' that may come to be.

October 'Wired Magazine' has a featured article highlighting the work of Ellen Miller. Never hear of her? Read on.

Ellen Miller, founder of the Sunlight Foundation has a goal...to tap some of the internets best-known thinkers in order to make Washington as user friendly as Google. She says, "Washington Politicians like the firewall they have erected. They will have to be dragged into the 21st century".

Here are some of her current projects with links and explanations of what they do:

Earmarkwatch.org- When politicians makes sausage, they don't skimp on the pork. More than 500 volunteers have pored through federal spending bills to created this database of KICKBACKS and BOONDOGGLES.

OpenCongress.org-This site summarizes bills in EVERYDAY language and monitors related news and blog coverage. Users can also follow a legislator's voting record AND submit comments on proposed laws.

Punch Clock Map-The next best thing to putting a bell on your senator, this Google map tracks the schedules of participating members of Congress. While only 9 of 535 members of Congress have agreed to this to date, now that you know about it, write some letters or editorials and pressure ALL of them to be accountable with their time and activities.

Here are a few things she is proposing:

Crowdsourced Legislation: Why should elected officials be the only ones who get to haggle over legislation? Drafts of Bills should be uploaded to wikis, where anyone could edit them before they get debated by the House or Senate.

One-Click Government-Sure, you can find Federal documents online, but good luck making any sense of them. Her suggestion: Build mashups that seamlessly link politicians, donor, and legislation to give a COMPLETE picture of how government works and WHO is doing what and when.

Constant Real-Time Video: Encourage phonecam-weilding citizens to attend government meetings and post the proceedings on You Tube. They've been keeping track and videotaping American citizens for years. Isn't it time we had the same privileges?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Ophiuchus,

The question that I am asking myself is this: if a NWO/Illuminatti organization exists, and is crashing everything for the purpose of control, why? They already own everything and control everything. The current collapse only serves to loosen their control. If Zionists engineered the collapse, why? Don't they already control everything? Properly running Capitalism leads to ultimate control, its collapse breeds discontent and disobediance. The current crisis, as a manufactured phenomenon, makes no sense from the "eye's" point of view.

Marx may have been a puppet, but he was a brilliant puppet who clearly understood many of the nacient problems of industrial Capitalism.

G.,

The Latin American and Indian models are the very models that captivate the Neo-Marxists - they are, in many respects, still undergoing the process of "articulation," the process by which market forces chip away at an existing exchange/tribal system. Despite the propaganda we get here in the U.S. and in Western Europe, Latin America, in many ways, has not yet reached such pervasive dependency, and in that respect retain a form of freedom that for us, died a long time ago.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Definately, if we do what we have always done, we get what we have always gotten, evolution is about breaking out of that unacceptable *****, PEACE.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

For a clown, I think you are spot on... :winksmiley02:

Every person that is pulling money from the system is saying "no confidence"

It has snowballed so many who have no idea what is going on are pulling out too.

did anyone smile seeing oil close at $77.7...:thumb_yello:

First the banks, then the oil companies will be brought into public control...

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

HC,

I thought I'd look into what is actually happening in Venezuela to see how much they are impacted by the 'world wide' economic crisis. In doing so, I stumbled upon an article which outlined, I think quite well, the difference between capitalist and socialist intervention in the economy. I've provided the link below but would summarize it as follows. When the capitalists intervene, the purpose is to protect the interests of the wealthy and their institutions to the detriment of the people, i.e., we the people will be paying off the 700B debt and thereby supporting the various banking institutions. When socialist governments intervene, the purpose is to take a profitable business and redistribute the wealth to the people, as is the case when Chavez nationalized the Venezuelan oil companies and used the money to institute universal health care and implement a literacy program.

In addition to your point that the people of Latin America have been less integrated into the (US based) capitalist system, I would add that there has been a conscious and cooperative movement among the leftist Latin American governments to barter among themselves and create a regional bank, thereby further disengaging themselves from the web of the IMF and the World Bank.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3846

As an aside, I really appreciate your commentary, which is significantly more nuanced than the "Illuminati did it" commentary that tries to pass for reasoned analysis.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3846

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

The thing I keep remembering about this global collapse, is that it is the collapse of nothing. Nothing. Cyber wealth. Digits. Ones and zeroes on computers. We exchange that Nothing for real stuff like food and cars. We pay back our credit card Nothing with pieces of paper that we "earn" at our jobs, or maybe we pay back the Nothing with more Nothing (direct deposit into our banks). It's quite funny if you step outside of it a little bit.

Some communities are creating their own paper money. And why not? Paper money used to be a promise to pay in gold or silver. You could take paper money to the bank and demand real physical metal in return. Then they took away the gold and silver. Now it's a promise to pay in what? Nothing. :original: So the collapse of this system is really funny because nobody is really losing anything except all their Nothing.

How bizarre!

If we go to a grocery store and don't have any more Nothing left in our bank account or on our credit card, we can't get food. That is we don't have any Nothing to exchange for Something. This whole system has been a mass hypnosis, a mass illusion. Let it fall and none too soon.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Here's a thought: Why don't we just throw away all that Nothing and see what's really real, or at least physical?

We'd be back to a barter system, where things have real value, which I personally prefer.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I agree, and hope more people realise this. I wonder how the ones, to whom money was the be all and end all, will cope. It's going to be a great leveller of ego for us all.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Indeed. Imagine how the Chinese must feel. They've sent all kinds of real goods to the US and now they're stuck with some digits and paper that may be worthless. There's been an attempt in my community to create local currency and it's met with mixed results, though it may be an avenue to pursue in the future as the fiat dollar disintegrates.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

=
=

I think the quality (worth) of the Chinese products
reflects the quality (worth) of the USA Dollar.

Both are worthless junk.

=
=

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

There certainly is lot of junk coming out of China, but your comments are overly broad. There is certainly more intrinsic value in clothing, tools, computers, and furniture made in China. Further, your comments are an insult to the Chinese who in many cases have labored long hours to provide us with real items for our use. Sadly though, and as you alude to, much of their labor has gone into items of little intrinsic value, like fake santa claus's and barbie dolls. But that is the nature of the system which responds to profitable opportunities and not to people's needs.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

=
=

I should clarify my words.

My comment only reflects upon the quality of the products made by Chinese companies and other associated countries and NOT the Chinese people. Just as
the American people are NOT the Federal Reserve system that prints the USA dollar. I think the people of both countries are mostly very good and would
like to be associated with good products and good will towards each other.

=
=

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

What's wrong with the quality of the Chinese products? There is certainly well constructed clothing coming out of China. And my point is not that the quality is good or bad, but that even a poorly constructed screwdriver has more intrinsic use value that a worthless piece of paper.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Well said Gwynned,

As for China and goodwill, I would say that that is the ideal, but not the reality. If I was in charge of the Chinese economy, I would be infuriated at the United States and Western Europe right now. Western underwriters of bad mortages knew what they were selling foreign investors, and China, on good faith, snapped a lot of those up - based on the deceptive packaging. The only reason they have not crashed us yet, is because we are a primary market.

Chinese goods rate as acceptable in terms of quality, and it should be remembered that the massive influx of American goods that flooded Europe in the aftermath of WWII were not always of the best quality either. "American made" serves as a patriotic meme more than an index of quality.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

[QUOTE=historycircus;47612]

If I was in charge of the Chinese economy, I would be infuriated at the United States and Western Europe right now. QUOTE]

If I were in charge of the Chinese economy I would be beating myself over the head, and perhaps dying from shame, wondering how I got so disconnected from the wisdom of my ancestors. The Chinese, which have traditionally been thought of as "wise and inscrutable," (not including Mao and 20th century politics), somehow stepped off the wisdom platform and into the swamp of modern economics.

Surely they knew the game they were entering. :original: But somehow they fell for it, more's the pity. Let's jump on this modern bandwagon, go global. Let's make our air unbreathable, let's poison our rivers. Let's get in this game. How foolish. What happened to the wisdom?

(I know that's a cliche and a stereotype, but it was a good one, and had some basis in fact.)

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Doodah,

I don't think we can safely assume that China, starting in the late 1990s, did completely understand what they were buying. They were well acquainted with Capitalist theory, but not practical operation. Who were/are they gonna' ask for advice? Russia - a nation experiencing its own learning curve? The United States - a proclaimed enemy for over a half century? I'm not so sure that they did know the game.

But they have learned well. Our economic futures really rest in China's hands - at least as long as global concerns and forces dominate everyday economic activity.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

the floor mats in my car were recalled for lead paint...

Is the count really up over 40,000 babies that are sick from the poison they put in the milk?

Did China really say that though they could help the worlds banking system from collapsing, they have decided not to?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

historycircus -- I think I understand why you say what you've said, and I suppose China might not have understood the emptiness of the dollar. Perhaps.

But the real physical effects of globalized industry, that they surely must have understood. After all, the US has demonstrated the results of modern industrial processes for over 50 years. So China went ahead anyway, with the same processes. I'm not aware that they've done anything differently, and the effects are the same -- polluted air, poisoned water. I've never understood why they did that.

As to the monetary stuff, it's true that nobody understands modern finance, including all the people who talk about it.

Here's a very interesting analysis of modern economics:

Economic Models explained with cows...

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull.
Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.
You sell them and retire on the income.

SOCIALISM
You have two cows.
You give one to your neighbor who has none.

COMMUNISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRATISM
You have two cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away.

SURREALISM
You have two giraffes.
The government requires you to take harmonica lessons.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow has dropped dead.

THE ANDERSEN MODEL
You have two cows.
You shred them.

A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organize a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk.
You then create a clever cow cartoon image called 'Cowkimon' and market it worldwide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION
You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.
You charge the owners for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.

AN IRAQI CORPORATION
Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.
You tell them that you have none.
No-one believes you, so they bomb you and invade your country.
You still have no cows, but at least now you are a Democracy.

A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.

AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
The one on the left looks very attractive.

ENRON VENTURE CAPITALISM
You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of
credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a
debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all
four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a
Cayman Island Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who
sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company.
The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on
one more.
You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows.
No balance sheet provided with the release.
The public then buys your bull.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I saw the size of that post and said oh no, what is this. I was dreading poetry. That was hilarious, and will share accordingly.

Thanks!

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

World Bank meeting today
 

I thought the World Bank meeting was rushed here just in the nick of time for the world financial crisis...

nope

They had it scheduled by their last meeting - Sunday, April 13, 2008:shocked:

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Not sure China didn't know or just couldn't stop throwing good money after bad. Here's a comprehensive analysis of why we (in the US) are in the state we're in. Given our circumstances, I don't see how Obama will be able to react much differently. After all, if a vehicle is broken, it doesn't matter who drives it.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/oc...bgr1-o13.shtml

The so-called financialization of American capitalism continued and accelerated in the Clinton and George W. Bush years. Amidst waves of corporate downsizing, financial speculation played an ever-greater role in economic life and assumed new and more parasitic forms. One speculative bubble succeeded another: the East Asian collapse was followed by the rise and fall of the dot.com bubble, and was quickly replaced by the subprime mortgage bubble. Securitization of debt became the new model of American banking, based on the conception that high-risk and high-yield investments, sustained by an exponential growth of debt, could continue to expand without limit, since the banks could offload much of the debt to other investors around the world.

The indices of the growth of financial speculation in the US economy are staggering: In 1982, the profits of US financial companies accounted for 5 percent of total after-tax corporate profits. In 2007, they made up 41 percent of corporate profits. (emphasis added) Between 1983 and 2007, the share of the financial sector’s profits in US gross domestic product rose six-fold. The United States, by far the world’s largest debtor nation, with a current account deficit of nearly $800 billion, is today sustained by the importation of $1 trillion in foreign capital every year, or over $4 billion every working day.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Hi gwynned,

The article by Gray was interesting - for me, from a historical perspective, there is a lot to disagree with him about. I'll spare you that, however, and say that I think his big-picture analysis identifies problem.

The numbers you give here on corporate profits are scary, and I think they underscore the unsustainability of the system as is. Isn't it funny that Democrats in the United States are billed as the economic wizards, and the trillion dollar surplus of 99' is always trotted out (Bam-Bam did it in the debate last Tuesday)? But, as you succinctly put it, that balance and surplus was directly dependent upon the acceleration of speculative venture capitalism. Clinton gets the white wash treatment in history simply because it didn't fall apart on his watch, and as sour and unpleasant as the following words are for me to type, Bush Jr. simply inherited - did not create - the situation we have today (ok, after that last sentence, I need a shower). That being said, the Enron debacle and market crash of 2001 right after 9/11, should have been an eye opener for the White House and Congress, but the Bush administration did nothing, and as adherents to the supply side philosophy (the Laffer curve is no laugher) used the Clintonian mechanisms of high risk market speculation to justify our unprecedented national debt.

Considering all of that, I still think the global economic crisis is the result of bungling and mistakes, not an orchestrated crash. I don't want to dismiss the NWO/Illuminatti crowd who believe that the crash is engineered to bring down tighter control, but, as noted in this thread, I disagree with that scenario. I am more concerned about the way the PTB will try to keep the wounded beast alive, not what they will replace it with.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

I know almost nothing about economics, and many of you clearly do know quite a lot about it.

I googled the word "depression", and arrived at a 2005 article that predicted a global depression was coming. In the article, the author said there are 2 kinds of depression, deflationary depression (such as the depression in the 1930's), and hyperinflationary depression (which he said happened in Germany earlier than the Great Depression).

If he is correct that there are 2 kinds of depression, which type might be coming our way? Since the American and other governments are throwing an obscene amount of money at various failing financial institutions, is it safe to assume that this money is not backed by anything real, and that the hyperinflationary type of depression is the only kind of depression that could result from their actions?

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Hi droid,

Glad to have you on-board; feel free to offer your two cents on any of the many topics in this thread.

I am not familiar with the German model at all, and I think the deflationary trend of 1929 and 1930s might not be applicable to our current situation. Back then, industrial leaders and their sources of capital seem to have been taken by surprise (in the sense that stocks on margin were a known gamble, just one that they expected to win); today, however, it is hard for me to believe that educated executives and highly trained economists did not see what was coming. It was deception, not over speculation, that led to recent declines in world markets. They sold a car lot full of lemons, and then sold the dealership before anyone got wise to them.

I think, however, that WE now will experience a dramatic rise in inflation. I have a big family, and I know a lot of people just trying to scrape by. Our paychecks were not stretching like they used to long before the credit card crisis, housing crash, and global banking debacle. That is what happens when you spend billions of dollars a month that you don't have fighting wars that destabilze energy markets. I have noticed a rapid decline in purchasing power beginning with the invasion of Iraq.

That 700 billion certainly will not come from the slashing of social programs or reduced military spending - it will simply be a digital entry on the part of the U.S. Treasury. That means that prices will adjust in market systems (i.e., rise), and we will ultimately pay more for our goods. Never, ever, not once, in the history of the United States and Great Britain, has printing more currency been a successful approach to economic decline - it has only served to make poor people poorer.

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

It sounds like at this present point in time that Capitalism is an insatiable beast and the World is much too small for it's too ravenous appetite. :(

Re: Capitalism, Sustainability, and the Possibility of Global Collapse
 

Welcome to the thread Myra,

In my opinion investment Capitalism, industrial Capitalism, is indeed a ravenous beast. It needn't be that way, but that is what it has become.

Given the bounce in the markets today (Oct. 13, 2008), I am convinced that "free markets" will be our ticket to ultimate slavery. They are anything but "free." As I said earlier, I am more concerned about the attempts to keep our economic system limping along more than I am about some superimposed system out of nowhere.

How will safe/radiant zones in the future - with a couple of hundred people to feed and clothe - efficiently and fairly produce and distribute goods, avoiding the pitfalls of Capitalism? Are we headed to the rebirth of the exchange economy?